In all seriousness, this derby record: WTF are we going to do about it?

[CRIMHEAD]

I cant see that bearing fruit even if built by 2022 for a long time.

We need another route. We need a reliance on home grown talent and an absolute wizard in the transfer market who is a great motivator.

I agree, it's not just about the stadium. We simply have to be better at managing a club than the other big six. We have to be one step ahead in buying the right talent and developing that talent. We also have to be more clever and innovative on the pitch in using that talent.

Personally, I don't think it's impossible, but it takes a decent initial investment in talent to make a bit of a jump. We have to get to a slightly higher level - there was some of that this summer, but it was confused and not complete. You can't go into the year without a friggin striker. You need to have up and comers as backups in each position (JonJoe, Holgate). Buying 28-30 year olds should be short terms stopgap measures.

If we did at least compete a bit more with the top 6, or at least do some damage even in the Europa league or god forbid, get a trophy in any form, many other avenues of business could open up for us, and we could probably convince players even better that we could compete for CL spots. Because there may be a bigger business management gap there even is on the playing field, which is terrifying.

An example - I can go into most major sporting goods stores here in the states and buy several team jerseys. Beyond the national team kits, it's Man U, Man City, Barca, Madrid, Chelsea, Bayern, Arsenal, etc. You might find a PSG, Milan, Juventus sometimes, but almost always will I find a Tottenham. Think about that for a second. They've won nothing. Part of that is the UA deal, of course. But our kit deal is a joke. We've had more Americans play for us than any other English side. Maybe a Tosun will help us in Turkey. I'm not saying go splash 50M on Pulisic (although that would be awesome) to corner the US market, I'm simply saying there's competition on the business side in generating more revenue to pay better players WELL BEYOND the stadium deal.

 

[DanEFC92]

The Tosun derby. Heard it here first, folks.

 

[rochdaleblue]

As far as I can make out a 16 game sequence without a win is a club all time low. Seven years without a win. It's beyond embarrassing. Yes there's been draws and near misses, but it's pathetic. And that game yesterday, scabby penalty or not, we were second best.

If we'd hung on there last night I was confident we could finish them off at GP. We now have the Goodison derby left to try and put this atrocious record in the bin. Each season that goes by without us doing it though is going to make it even more of a monkey to get off our backs.

I cant think of a top-flight city rivalry as lopsided as our derby. They have more resources traditionally and, of course they have the officials weighing in for them, but that doesn't explain this phenomenon. The players just haven't been mentally up to it. That's true. But also our supporters expect it and they transmit that, so a draw is almost seen as our players' pre-derby target.

I'm completely mortified by this seven year record. More should be made of this and pressure heaped on our playing staff that a draw every other game or so is just not acceptable. Liverpool are the low-lying fruit of the PL elite too. It's not like they are untouchable in the last seven years.

As said in the thread title: what is to be done here? How does this run end and what do we need to do?

Great post fella
Your point about the players mentally not being up for it is spot. Ok so bar united (we haven’t won away at any of the top 4 teams in this period). But have regularly beat all the other top 6 at home, against far better teams then the RS have possessed over this period. I don’t know if it is the weight of expectation and how desperate the fan base are to beat them, but the players often freeze on derby day. Surely it can only be a mental thing, so why not get a sports psychologist in to work with players in the build up to the game. Let’s face it, it can’t make our derby record any worse.

 

[Geoff Nulty]

I remember Howard Kendall, in his first spell as manager, saying his target was to finish above Liverpool, because he knew that would mean winning the league. That's obviously not the case now, but I think beating Liverpool, both in the table and on the pitch, should nevertheless be our target. Not because it's our cup final or any nonsense like that, but because it's achievable and it would be a resounding statement both in the city and in the wider game, much more so than overhauling Tottenham or Arsenal, say. In order to do that, we need to have the right talent, and the right physical and mental attributes. Mental toughness, a desire to win, and a hatred of losing should be absolute imperative criteria in the recruitment of managers, coaches, players, and executives. Too many of out appointments, stretching back to the day Kendall left for the first time, have lacked these qualities. We need players who have the very highest standards for themselves and expect the same of their teammates. No more shrugging our shoulders and saying what did you expect.

 

[riddick]

I don't get the whole 'we need players with better mentality'. We've been saying it for eons, we've replaced almost literally EVERY player from Moyes (or marginalized them).

 

[ToffeeTim]

Be more aggressive. No playing for draws.

We need a board who demand we are competitive. We need players and a manager who believe they will win. And players and a manager who fear losing.

Getting those things is easier said than done tho.

 

[riddick]

Be more aggressive. No playing for draws.

We need a board who demand we are competitive. We need players and a manager who believe they will win. And players and a manager who fear losing.

Getting those things is easier said than done tho.

We've had literally almost every type of manager you can think of tho. The arm around the shoulder, the aloof/cold one, the best buddy one and now a gigantic fat tit who has a pretty respectable record against that lot.

 

[Toffee in Jandals]

Eventually we will win tbh, not much else to do but wait for that day. Hopefully once the likes of Jagielka and Baines have gone (I like them but they are scarred) we will get better against the rs.

To be fair to Jags, he had a great game yesterday. But agree with your point in principle, the likes of Baines and Jags by this stage simply must have a mental block when they play the RS. If you think you're going to have a crap day at work, you probably will, as you've already set yourself up for it. Ditto for Baines, Jagielka, and previously Osman et. al. when they glance across to see Gerrard and Carragher alongside them in the tunnel.

 

[DanEFC92]

Be more aggressive. No playing for draws.

We need a board who demand we are competitive. We need players and a manager who believe they will win. And players and a manager who fear losing.

Getting those things is easier said than done tho.

We've played with aggression, almost every derby.

 

[BlueStevie35]

Here's another status that's frustrating, you would think with us changing managers more frequently these days that it would bring a change in Derby fortunes, yet Big Joe is still the last manager to win his maiden derby, way back in November 1994. Moyes's first came with the Carsley goal in December 2004, his 5th derby, Martinez didn't win one in 6 attempts, Koeman won neither of his 2 and Sam is the same atm with a shot at third time lucky to come. As far as our other two managers in this PL era, Kendall won 3 of the 5 he managed, drawing one and losing one while Walker lost his only derby in charge

 

[Igrok]

You would need a derby working committee (scientist, mentor, coaches, doctors, hitmen...)

 

[dannyboy]

We've had Clattenburg, Yellows become Reds after a word from their Captain, we've had Red cards overturned a week later, we've had the ball moved to a new postcode at a late freekick, seen flying assaults go unpunished, we've played weakened sides because we have a quarter final game three days later at home, we've under hit back passes at Wembley, we've agreed to play too often at lunchtime on a Saturday when I've not had enough ale, we've had goals struck off for full time when its sailing into the Gwladys St net, we've had penalties galore given against us, we've seen an alleged Cameroonian World Cup celebration as a sometime England international has been on his knees crawling alongside the goal line cupping his hand to his nostril, we've conceded in the first minute, conceded in the last minute, we've had racists propel themselves fifteen feet in the air in front of our bench to taunt our manager, we've been called a small club by the occupiers of our old ground - in fairness, they've done a bit of touching up since we last won the league there - we've also season in season shown our neighbours a respect that they simply don't deserve since the back pass rule was introduced. I've seen Steau scarves worn as a badge of honour by those too young to even remember the reason why, I've seen banners & heard chants from a fanbase that typify the double standards surrounding a football club who bring shame to these shores on a recurring basis & yet are celebrated by their sycophants in the media.

For the first time in a long time last night we took the game to them and showed them no respect - I loved Kenny backing Holgate up - loved Davis not even looking twice as Gok Won was retrieved from row three - the ingredients for change are there. Its Glory Past, once our first team realise they can go toe to toe & win against them is when we start to restore the balance. It's heavily tipped one way at the moment though! I still know we're better though.

Only problem with this is the fact we all probably felt similar after the first Martinez derby and to say that was a false dawn would be an understatement.

 

[st.domingo]

Winning attitude comes from the top.

Imagine that this intro by the new man in charge had been delivered at Finch Farm:

'Lads, we've finished seventh each of the last two seasons. Crazy stuff; absolutely appalling. I've not come here for that.'
​

 

[Yarrgh]

When the owner expects losses, then they are acceptable.

We are soft from the top down. Can anyone remember what Moshiri stated what he was targeting as success and over what timeframe? Has he even defined that explicitly- I honestly can't recall it if he has. No one appears to be held to account. How long to replace a manager? How long to get in a striker? How long to get a stadium project progressed?

 

[davek]

I remember Howard Kendall, in his first spell as manager, saying his target was to finish above Liverpool, because he knew that would mean winning the league. That's obviously not the case now, but I think beating Liverpool, both in the table and on the pitch, should nevertheless be our target. Not because it's our cup final or any nonsense like that, but because it's achievable and it would be a resounding statement both in the city and in the wider game, much more so than overhauling Tottenham or Arsenal, say. In order to do that, we need to have the right talent, and the right physical and mental attributes. Mental toughness, a desire to win, and a hatred of losing should be absolute imperative criteria in the recruitment of managers, coaches, players, and executives. Too many of out appointments, stretching back to the day Kendall left for the first time, have lacked these qualities. We need players who have the very highest standards for themselves and expect the same of their teammates. No more shrugging our shoulders and saying what did you expect.

I agree. This derby failure does enormous damage to our reputation. If you cant even win in the local derby then it's not a rivalry, and our rivalry with them has defined both clubs since day one. They can get by on their phoney media driven El Classico with United but we have nothing outside the derby.

The Merseyside Derby is one of the greatest events in world football historically speaking and we need to up our game 100% to get it back there.