Leighton Baines

[Essex Blue]

The executioners bong graph referred to where Everton were weakest in their defence, and it was quite clearly from our left hand side. Ask yourself why that is?

Are you referring to the release clause that Fellaini denies exists? The one which the media are making up new rules about as they go along, apparently it now has a cut off date of the 15th August. The release clause that was 'confirmed' by Bill ****ing Kenwright?

The stats I have to back up my point are the ones showing that we conceded most of our goals for opposition attacks down our left hand side. Moron.

 

[Tubey]

The executioners bong graph referred to where Everton were weakest in their defence, and it was quite clearly from our left hand side. Ask yourself why that is?

Are you referring to the release clause that Fellaini denies exists? The one which the media are making up new rules about as they go along, apparently it now has a cut off date of the 15th August. The release clause that was 'confirmed' by Bill ****ing Kenwright?

The stats I have to back up my point are the ones showing that we conceded most of our goals for opposition attacks down our left hand side. Moron.

It couldn't be because Baines is used as an attacking outlet so the opposition logically use a counter-attacking strategy down that same outlet could it?

No, of course not. It MUST be because Baines is "no great shakes defensively"...

Utterly stupid. The jump in logic there is mad. Even on the same website you're using to bizarrely paint Baines as weak defensively it actually points out how Baines is defensively sound!

His tackle completion is identical to Cole, who plays in a more balanced side, yet you can't see the correlation.

This is as simple as I can put it - we'll concede more goals down the left hand side because we attack more down the left hand side. Therefore, it's a tactical weakness, not a player weakness. All you can do is look at individual stats - if Baines is statistically doing his job defensively and doing his tactical role in attack, then he's doing a superb job.

It's not difficult to understand; it's basic football knowledge. If an attacking full back is employed, then the team will be less defensively secure by definition.

Look at it and understand the correlation FFS.

 

[njligernj]

If you get rid of a £20 million player who we won't be able to sell for alot of money in a few years, and get in a player who is abit cheaper - yet younger who will have a sell on fee in a few years - then its probably worth it.

... and then we can sell that guy when he is in his prime and get a younger guy who we sell just as he is in his prime and get a younger guy who we sell just as he is in his prime ... and repeat. Never any chance to improve; a good chance to get worse if we miss on the younger replacement.

Champions League teams make the CL because they have CL-quality players playing for their teams in their prime.

We will never improve by selling our best players. Doesn't work for any of the teams below us in the league; won't work for us.

Next time fans complain about how corporate football is now they should take a long look in the mirror about how they approve of transfers like this which are done for business reasons more than an attempt to improve the team on the pitch.

The fact that 100% of our fans aren't horrified by the idea of selling our best player is kind of disturbing.

Bird in the hand people ... bird in the hand. We aren't going to sign the next Messi and Ronaldo with 15-20m -- we are statistically far more likely to get a Heitinga (good buy overall but not Baines) and a Bily.

 

[Essex Blue]

The correlation is that Baines' propensity to attack makes our left side of defence more vulnerable to successful attacks from the opposition. That is not great defensive play, and means that the defensive maestro which is Seamus Coleman provided us with greater defensive protection, which is what constitutes defensive proficiency. Can you not understand that?

I'm not sad enough to have a load of graphs favourited on my computer, but you are, so I'll ask you why you are ignoring The Executioners Bong's latest graphics in favour of ones from 2010/11?

Also, regarding the previous discussion regarding Fellaini's 'release clause', that will be the discussion in which the only prior references to such a release clause came from Everton fan websites, oh yeah, and some fellers blog IIRC? That's the release clause that Fellaini denies exists.

The simple fact is that the weakest part of Everton's defence was our left hand side last season, or at least it was according to the Executioners Bong's graph that you seem to be ignoring.

 

[swisso]

It's a valid point mentioning that we may concede more goals down our left side.

However, it's also just as valid emphasising that opposition teams are more like to attack down our left too, some teams even overloading down our left to exploit any potential weaknesses.

Before we've even kicked a ball, the weakness is down the left, would be wasteful for the opposition to not exploit that.

The truth lies in the players individual performance. I.e. when Baines is called upon to defend, does he do it well?

 

[Essex Blue]

It's a valid point mentioning that we may concede more goals down our left side.

However, it's also just as valid emphasising that opposition teams are more like to attack down our left too, some teams even overloading down our left to exploit any potential weaknesses.

Before we've even kicked a ball, the weakness is down the left, would be wasteful for the opposition to not exploit that.

The truth lies in the players individual performance. I.e. when Baines is called upon to defend, does he do it well?

Careful mate, Leighton Baines doesn't have any weaknesses at all, and the fact that he's at the wrong end of the pitch when the opposition break down on our left is totally irrelevant because he's making a tactical choice to put his defence in jeopardy, and therefore that doesn't count as a defensive weakness.

 

[Tubey]

The correlation is that Baines' propensity to attack makes our left side of defence more vulnerable to successful attacks from the opposition. That is not great defensive play, and means that the defensive maestro which is Seamus Coleman provided us with greater defensive protection, which is what constitutes defensive proficiency. Can you not understand that?

We attacked less down the right hand side so tactically we were not exposed as much down the right hand side. Coleman did not provide greater defensive protection than Baines; he was simply used less often offensively and therefore tactically in position to defend. Furthermore, the opposition simply attacked down the right hand side less often.

This is, once again, 1+1=2 level stuff.

Also, I simply Google'd "Executioner's Bong Leighton Baines" and came up with this - http://theexecutionersbong.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/player-focus-leighton-baines/


I'll deconstruct your last post to point out exactly where you're going wrong:

The correlation is that Baines' propensity to attack makes our left side of defence more vulnerable to successful attacks from the opposition.

Absolutely.

That is not great defensive play.

First mistake. It's neither good or bad, it's a tactical choice. Baines' attacking stats justify him being a primarily attacking option, therefore Everton used him in that tactical role.

and means that the defensive maestro which is Seamus Coleman provided us with greater defensive protection

... and there's the wrong bit. He didn't. He played a different tactical role.

which is what constitutes defensive proficiency.

It doesn't. It means he played a different tactical role.

I've highlighted tactical role repeatedly for a reason. No matter what you say, you cannot find stats that will say that Leighton Baines would not be able to play the defensive full back position just as well as Ashley Cole if required.

Ashley Cole - Better team, short passing percentage higher as they build from the back, less attacking emphasis so less assists and cross dependency, personal defensive stats are the only comparable indicator to Baines.

Leighton Baines - Weaker team, side plays direct down the left, high attacking emphasis means more assists and crosses, personal defensive stats are the only comparable indicator to Cole.

 

[Tubey]

Careful mate, Leighton Baines doesn't have any weaknesses at all, and the fact that he's at the wrong end of the pitch when the opposition break down on our left is totally irrelevant because he's making a tactical choice to put his defence in jeopardy, and therefore that doesn't count as a defensive weakness.

You're trying to be sarcastic, yet the bold bit is pretty much exactly right. Oh, except for "he's making a tactical choice" - actually, his manager tactically employs him in that role, but yeah, pretty much.

So you're only ever correct when you're being sarcastic. Amazing.

 

[Essex Blue]

I'd argue that it's more than just a tactical role, and that it is actually part of Leighton Baines footballing make up, and that he has been employing that tactical role since long before he came to Everton, and that there is very little evidence of him ever performing any other tactical role.

However, even if it is just a tactical role, it's a tactical role that results in our team conceding more goals as a result of Baines being out of position when he is needed. And it is this tactical role that sits uneasy with United fans, it means Leighton Baines in nowhere to be seen when his defence needs him. The simple fact is that he provides less defensive protection than Seamus Coleman.

 

[Tubey]

I'd argue that it's more than just a tactical role, and that it is actually part of Leighton Baines footballing make up, and that he has been employing that tactical role since long before he came to Everton, and that there is very little evidence of him ever performing any other tactical role.

However, even if it is just a tactical role, it's a tactical role that results in our team conceding more goals as a result of Baines being out of position when he is needed. And it is this tactical role that sits uneasy with United fans, it means Leighton Baines in nowhere to be seen when his defence needs him. The simple fact is that he provides less defensive protection than Seamus Coleman.

OK, sure, whatever.

 

[BoysInBlue]

The Everton team will be SIGNIFICANTLY worser off without Leighton Baines.

Anyone trying to justify his departure or spin it in a positive manner is talking a load of rubbish.

No matter how much money we realistically get, we won't get anyone anywhere as good as him.

We survived without Arteta, we could survive without Fellaini.... but Baines is a massive component in our side. It will be a very sad day indeed if he goes, and yet another example of how screwed we are as a club with the current board in charge.

 

[Essex Blue]

OK, sure, whatever.

The fact that we concede more goals from our left hand side proves it mate.

 

[Ravensblue]

Careful mate, Leighton Baines doesn't have any weaknesses at all, and the fact that he's at the wrong end of the pitch when the opposition break down on our left is totally irrelevant because he's making a tactical choice to put his defence in jeopardy, and therefore that doesn't count as a defensive weakness.

I once said Baines wasn't the best LB in the world on here...nearly didn't make it out alive.

 

[rochdaleblue]

Can't believe people on here are criticising baines. I am in my early 40s and baines is without doubt the best full back I have seen at the club. People who argue that we are weak down the left, due to this illusion he can't defend properly make me laugh. Great full backs of the past Stevens great athlete but poor distribution,van de hawe quality defensively but average attacker. Baines imo is better than both. Both of these players played in arguably one of our best ever teams. Baines is outstanding going forward, look at the chances he creates, he is solid defensively (not many wide men get the better of him) and he has been voted in the PFA team the last 2 seasons. All I know if that if baines is sold our team will be so much poorer for his departure.

 

[pfim]

I'd argue that it's more than just a tactical role, and that it is actually part of Leighton Baines footballing make up, and that he has been employing that tactical role since long before he came to Everton, and that there is very little evidence of him ever performing any other tactical role.

However, even if it is just a tactical role, it's a tactical role that results in our team conceding more goals as a result of Baines being out of position when he is needed. And it is this tactical role that sits uneasy with United fans, it means Leighton Baines in nowhere to be seen when his defence needs him. The simple fact is that he provides less defensive protection than Seamus Coleman.

If he is being asked to attack as part of his role, then he isn't out of position. This whole like of thinking is patently absurd.