Lukaku

[Tubey]

Personally, I don't think we've given him much of a chance in a cohesive team this season. He clearly operates better in a system with two wingers and a firing-on-all-cylinders Barkley, but Martinez has persisted with some very shapeless formations that would limit the service to any striker. I do think bringing on Kone to close out a game after 60 or 70 minutes is the way to go, as his touch and hold-up play is infinitely better.

So it's up to the £28m striker to adapt his game to the style of play that he's now been involved in for nearly a year and a half. People speak of potential - I don't see that potential in a player who has barely improved despite being asked to play a certain role for a long period of time.

I agree it's not his fault he's being asked to play a certain way, but conversely if he's a world class potential talent then you'd think he'd be making headway if the manager refuses to play to his strengths.

I've never said anything other than Lukaku is potentially a world class off the shoulder finisher, but that's not what we're using him for right now.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

One cost £5m, the other £28m. Both came in on fire, both tailed off dramatically, both have the same style of play.

The price tag matters. Until Lukaku is five times better than Jelavic, he's open to critique.

Records this season:

Lukaku - 7 goals in 25 league games.
Jelavic - 7 goals in 19 league games.

The lad has a lot to prove.

Now be fair he's only going to cost £28m if he's proved himself good enough, seeing as you're not convinced he'll actually carry on improving and getting better you should really be quoting the fee of £24m which in this day and age of £75m footballers isn't a great deal.

 

[Tubey]

One is 21 years old.

Yeah, that's factored in to my criticism of him. That excuse would hold more water with me if he was 18 and new to the country, not after three years of acclimatising to the league.

I'm not saying he's garbage, I'm saying he's playing below expectations as far as I'm concerned and I'll say as such.

 

[Tubey]

No be fair he's only going to cost £28m if he's proved himself good enough, seeing as you're not convinced he'll actually carry on improving and getting better you should really be quoting the fee of £24m which in this day and age of £75m footballers isn't a great deal.

We're not Man City... Our previous record transfer was £15m. It's a big deal for us; the equivalent of City paying £75m.

Also, even if you do say £24m, it's still nearly five times more than we paid for Jelavic, so the point stands.

 

[Prevenger17]

So it's up to the £28m striker to adapt his game to the style of play that he's now been involved in for nearly a year and a half. People speak of potential - I don't see that potential in a player who has barely improved despite being asked to play a certain role for a long period of time.

I agree it's not his fault he's being asked to play a certain way, but conversely if he's a world class potential talent then you'd think he'd be making headway if the manager refuses to play to his strengths.

I've never said anything other than Lukaku is potentially a world class off the shoulder finisher, but that's not what we're using him for right now.

Right, but why aren't we? The sort of all-round, world class striker you're talking about is rarer than you think and out of Everton's price range. We have a young man who is a proven goalscorer with some very glaring deficiencies and we play 3 midfielders, one sort-of winger and Steven Naismith behind him. Very few strikers could thrive in that sort of setup.

 

[bizzaro]

Yeah, that's factored in to my criticism of him. That excuse would hold more water with me if he was 18 and new to the country, not after three years of acclimatising to the league.

I'm not saying he's garbage, I'm saying he's playing below expectations as far as I'm concerned and I'll say as such.

I think he's a mood player.

If he's in the mood and has got the bit between his teeth. He's amazing.

If he's in a CEBA / NEA attitude on. He's barely in the game.


If he wants to be world class he's going to put the effort in 100% of the time and fight on the pitch.

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

I'm going to boo him tomorrow.

 

[Tubey]

Right, but why aren't we? The sort of all-round, world class striker you're talking about is rarer than you think and out of Everton's price range. We have a young man who is a proven goalscorer with some very glaring deficiencies and we play 3 midfielders, one sort-of winger and Steven Naismith behind him. Very few strikers could thrive in that sort off setup.

Because it's not 1998 and the age of Michael Owen and the poacher, or 1984 and the age of Lineker. Teams play as an attacking unit, not with a goal hanger.

Lukaku has always excelled in counter attacking units, where you leave the most advanced man forward, break quick, find him early to run on and slot. But we're not that kind of side in most games - we're a possession based, pressure unit, and he's proven time and time again that he's not a world class potential striker in that system, and given the way the game is moving then that's a pretty big worry.

 

[Prevenger17]

I'm going to boo him tomorrow.

Make him feel every ounce of that price tag, Eric.

 

[Tubey]

I think he's a mood player.

If he's in the mood and has got the bit between his teeth. He's amazing.

If he's in a CEBA / NEA attitude on. He's barely in the game.


If he wants to be world class he's going to put the effort in 100% of the time and fight on the pitch.

Sort of agree but one thing I will say about Lukaku is that he does run a lot during most games. He just makes the wrong runs most of the time, or his good runs are wasted as the ball pings off his shins when he tries his woeful first touch routine.

It's notable that when he's on fire and the ball sticks to him, those are his most impressive games. I can't remember the exact game, but the best match I've seen him play saw him not score but absolutely dominate his marker, hold the ball up and the whole team played well as a result. I need to see that more often than once ever two or three months.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

We're not Man City... Our previous record transfer was £15m. It's a big deal for us; the equivalent of City paying £75m.

Also, even if you do say £24m, it's still nearly five times more than we paid for Jelavic, so the point stands.

He cost five times more than Jelavic for a number of reason, mostly because Rangers were in the doo do and needed cash quick. But also because he's so young and has a great goal scoring record in a top league and has room to grow and improve.

As you say our previous record fee was £15m for a young kid with potential who wasn't perfect either, but that was 5 years previous and fees have risen considerably hence the cost of Lukaku.

 

[Prevenger17]

Because it's not 1998 and the age of Michael Owen and the poacher, or 1984 and the age of Lineker. Teams play as an attacking unit, not with a goal hanger.

Lukaku has always excelled in counter attacking units, where you leave the most advanced man forward, break quick, find him early to run on and slot. But we're not that kind of side in most games - we're a possession based, pressure unit, and he's proven time and time again that he's not a world class potential striker in that system, and given the way the game is moving then that's a pretty big worry.

It appears we have fundamentally different views of the game. I think counter-attacking is becoming far more relevant and successful than possession football (Atletico Madrid, Bayern against Barca two years ago) and we should be looking to break quick. Anecdotally, most of the games I've watched this season seem to be won by the team with the least possession.

 

[Tubey]

It appears we have fundamentally different views of the game. I think counter-attacking is becoming far more relevant and successful than possession football (Atletico Madrid, Bayern against Barca two years ago) and we should be looking to break quick. Anecdotally, most of the games I've watched seem to be won by the team with the least possession.

Not saying what we "should" be doing; I'm saying what we ARE doing. Martinez plays possession football.

There's no doubt in my mind that Lukaku is a 20 goal a season every season striker in a more direct system at a quality team (even around our standard, nevermind Bayern), but that's of absolutely no use to us is it?

 

[Prevenger17]

Not saying what we "should" be doing; I'm saying what we ARE doing. Martinez plays possession football.

There's no doubt in my mind that Lukaku is a 20 goal a season every season striker in a more direct system at a quality team (even around our standard, nevermind Bayern), but that's of absolutely no use to us is it?

I'm not sure I'm following here, it seems that your gripe is with the system rather than the player. Out of interest, who do you think would suit our current style of play more?

 

[Tubey]

I'm not sure I'm following here, it seems that your gripe is with the system rather than the player. Out of interest, who do you think would suit our current style of play more?

The ideal "if only" player? Dzeko, if you're looking for the stronger link up player, or Sturridge, Suarez, Aguero etc. if you're looking for the more mobile "space finder" link up player. But even Kone suits what we do more as a team unit, so it doesn't need that ultra-quality player.

It's pretty simple what I'm saying - there's two ways to play football in the modern game; a possession based dominant system, or a pace based direct system. Martinez plays the former. Lukaku is stronger in the latter system (a variant of which was seen at WBA but that was more a drop deep and counter when possible rather than an attacking plan of action, and at Everton during the Martinez "transition" phase from Moyes up until December of his first season), but at Everton we play the former.

Ideally for Lukaku, we'd adapt our playstyle and use him as a focal point of all attacks and play with pace and power. But given we don't, you want our £28m record signing to adapt over the course of a year and a half of this style of football and be an asset to this style of play.

So I'm not saying it's entirely Lukaku's fault the way he's playing in general at Everton, but I am saying that for someone who apparently has "unquestioned potential" to be a world class striker, he needs to be showing more improvements to his hold up play and distribution in a certain type of system to fulfil that potential at Everton.