Luke Garbutt

[marty mcfly]

Well I suspect Garbutt is saying he is off. We don't know why that may be. He may have a huge silly offer from someone, willing to pay him 60k a week and put him in heir first team (Rodgers has that in his range). Or he may feel that by 21 he needs to see that he has a progression into a first team. If it's the first option there is little we can do. We will get a small fee for him at Tribunal.

However if he wants more game time then the club can re-assure him. Baines could be rotated a little more, and could play further up the pitch. At a push Garbutt could even play wide left in particular games.

It would be awful to lose him to a West Brom for 20k a week. It's one thing losing more experienced players for reasonable fees but we need to do our upmost to keep younger players.

There's a lot of teams that might promise him those things but will they actually do that?

You think he will not go straight into the Liverpool team? He's our 3rd choice left back and you think he will start for them - he would be behind Moreno at the very least who's a quality player and also only 22. So he's essentially swapping our bench for theirs except time isn't on his side so the only reason he would go there is if he thought he was better than Moreno who has already won a Europa League Cup winners cup and started at Sevilla and Liverpool. He must think he's the dogs bollocks if he thinks that will happen. Rodgers might offer him a shorter term contract so he has backup and competition for Moreno but I suspect if he does sign him he would move him on after a year or two once Garbutt realizes he's not going to take Moreno's place.

Frankly if Rodgers signs him I think he would be no more than a pawn in a game of piss Martinez off. There's no doubt Rodgers has that I want to be the alpha male of managers in Liverpool. He probably still feels a bit inferior that Martinez was offered the job (and Swansea) before him.

I think it's far more likely he will end up somewhere like West Brom however they would be cautious of giving him too much money (might not be good enough) or a short term contract (might look to run it out again).

Stones had to wait until injury to Jags last season and wasn't even first choice this season. Barkley was a special case because he had been tearing up pre-season and it was plain to see the boy would be a star plus we had no-one of any ability in that role. Baines had to wait, Coleman had to wait etc

The simple truth might be that Finners is right and he doesn't have the right mentality.

 

[sageyefc]

Id be interested to know what his idea of playing time is


If he is being a bit funny or wanting too much money etc, id tell him to koff

 

[catcherintherye]

There's a lot of teams that might promise him those things but will they actually do that?

You think he will not go straight into the Liverpool team? He's our 3rd choice left back and you think he will start for them - he would be behind Moreno at the very least who's a quality player and also only 22. So he's essentially swapping our bench for theirs and the only reason he would go there is if he thought he was better than Moreno who has already won a Europa League Cup winners cup and started at Sevilla and Liverpool. He must think he's the dogs bollocks if he thinks that will happen. Rodgers might offer him a shorter term contract so he has backup and competition for Moreno but I suspect if he does sign him he would move him on after a year or two once Garbutt realizes he's not going to take Moreno's place.

I think it's far more likely he will end up somewhere like West Brom however they would be cautious of giving him too much money (might not be good enough) or a short term contract (might look to run it out again).

The simple truth might be that Finners is right and he doesn't have the right mentality.

In honesty it is hard to say (certainly for me) what the issue may be. Communication may have broken down with Martinez.

Regards your other questions, I think Rodgers has some serious doubts over Moreno and his ability to adapt to England particularly the defensive side of the game. Aside from 1 good cameo V Spurs it is hard to think of another decent performance he has put in. I also think Rodgers vanity might make him interested in Garbutt. He knows it would curry favour with the boneheads who follow Liverpool too, taking our "best young players". But yes your argument is right Garbutt by rights should be nowhere near such a move, which does give us a chance.

he may end up at a West Brom which would be disappointing. I think what Martinez has shown is if you get good young players, give them confidence and opportunities then they will perform well for you.

As stated we don't know his mindset. It might be that he has unrealistic expectations or someone is willing to do something silly with him, and pay him daft money. It would be disappointing to lose him though on the basis of being unwilling to give him a route into the first 11. I think he will want some guarantees on first team football and I think we should (within reason) cater to that.

 

[marty mcfly]

In honesty it is hard to say (certainly for me) what the issue may be. Communication may have broken down with Martinez.

Regards your other questions, I think Rodgers has some serious doubts over Moreno and his ability to adapt to England particularly the defensive side of the game. Aside from 1 good cameo V Spurs it is hard to think of another decent performance he has put in. I also think Rodgers vanity might make him interested in Garbutt. He knows it would curry favour with the boneheads who follow Liverpool too, taking our "best young players". But yes your argument is right Garbutt by rights should be nowhere near such a move, which does give us a chance.

he may end up at a West Brom which would be disappointing. I think what Martinez has shown is if you get good young players, give them confidence and opportunities then they will perform well for you.

As stated we don't know his mindset. It might be that he has unrealistic expectations or someone is willing to do something silly with him, and pay him daft money. It would be disappointing to lose him though on the basis of being unwilling to give him a route into the first 11. I think he will want some guarantees on first team football and I think we should (within reason) cater to that.

It's simple. I'll post what I said in the Baines thread again.

To play Garbutt ahead of Oviedo where there is very little difference at this moment (Garbutt is more talented but Oviedo more experienced, although I think Garbutt will be better) would do two things. 1. Demotivate a player we know is staying and 2. It means Oviedo doesn't get game time which is important when coming back from injury. Both of these things would risk next season.

I know not playing him also carries the risk of guaranteeing him leaving but at some point you simply have to make a judgment at how likely that is now. Personally I think he would have signed if he wanted to stay so I think the guy whom I overheard who I have no idea is ITK or where he heard it from is probably right.

Either way Martinez probably knows for sure so if he's not picking Garbutt we probably shouldn't get on his case.

Even if he does think he will play next season doesn't necessarily mean he will stay. If someone else further up the league comes in for him he might think they're a better bet for his career. At the end of the day in the summer he's as likely to sign for someone else than us.

Martinez has offered him a contract. Unless he signs it he can do no more. End of story.

He would be a fool to trust anything Rodgers says. Moreno is a very good player who is has played for Spain and on the verge of becoming their left back who has cost Liverpool a lot of money. There's no way Rodgers would seriously expect Garbutt to take his place. At most it would be to give him a bit of competition and worse to piss Martinez off which is far more likely.

 

[catcherintherye]

It's simple. I'll post what I said in the Baines thread again.

To play Garbutt ahead of Oviedo where there is very little difference at this moment (Garbutt is more talented but Oviedo more experienced, although I think Garbutt will be better) would do two things. 1. Demotivate a player we know is staying and 2. It means Oviedo doesn't get game time which is important when coming back from injury. Both of these things would risk next season.

I know not playing him also carries the risk of guaranteeing him leaving but at some point you simply have to make a judgment at how likely that is now. Personally I think he would have signed if he wanted to stay so I think the guy whom I overheard who I have no idea is ITK or where he heard it from is probably right.

Either way Martinez probably knows for sure so if he's not picking Garbutt we probably shouldn't get on his case.

Even if he does think he will play next season doesn't necessarily mean he will stay. If someone else further up the league comes in for him he might think they're a better bet for his career. At the end of the day in the summer he's as likely to sign for someone else than us.

Martinez has offered him a contract. Unless he signs it he can do no more. End of story.

I saw that post on the Baines thread too and there is a lot of sense in there.

I agree that Martinez was right to pick Oviedo for the derby. We needed a full back to mark a pacey winger in a 1 V 1 manner without an awful lot of cover. Oviedo is perfect for this job more so than Garbutt.

For reasons you have stated, I can only see Rodgers coming in for him from the top 6 sides who we might struggle to match, so I don't fear him moving on on that basis.

In many ways all you can do is offer a contract. However I think you can give people a route into the first team. If we have done that and he still wants to leave there's not a lot more that can be done. I suppose all I would hope is we had reflected that as part of our contract offer in terms of pay and what we have said to him.
It would be a great shame if Everton lost a player like Garbutt on the basis of being unwilling to give him opportunities to stay.

 

[Carlito]

He'd be a fool to stay.

Baines will start every week, regardless of form, until he decides to retire.

 

[marty mcfly]

I saw that post on the Baines thread too and there is a lot of sense in there.

I agree that Martinez was right to pick Oviedo for the derby. We needed a full back to mark a pacey winger in a 1 V 1 manner without an awful lot of cover. Oviedo is perfect for this job more so than Garbutt.

For reasons you have stated, I can only see Rodgers coming in for him from the top 6 sides who we might struggle to match, so I don't fear him moving on on that basis.

In many ways all you can do is offer a contract. However I think you can give people a route into the first team. If we have done that and he still wants to leave there's not a lot more that can be done. I suppose all I would hope is we had reflected that as part of our contract offer in terms of pay and what we have said to him.
It would be a great shame if Everton lost a player like Garbutt on the basis of being unwilling to give him opportunities to stay.

It would be a shame but these things happen. Sometimes there's nothing you can do. You can't simply bow to a 21 year olds demands.

 

[sexualchocolate]

Sometimes you can just see a player has significant potential. In those 4 appearances he has been part of a back 4 that kept a clean sheet away at the side that was on a winning run in the Bundesliga. he was remarkably calm. Compare his performance to say Seamus Coleman's in Benfica, or even how nervous a Rodwell, Stones or Barkley looked when they started.

He has all the attributes to be a very good left back. He is quick, attacks well, tall and good in the tackle as well as being very composed.

The moving Baines forward thing shouldn't be taken so literally. What I really mean is that we should try to ensure young players are given a pathway into the first 11. Too often under Moyes we waited too long in moving on older players to allow younger players a chance. I doubt Stones and Barkley would have been given an opportunity had he stayed.

I think Baines would suit a more attacking role. But you could just as easily keep Baines at left back and give Garbutt assurances he will have an opportunity at the left hand side of midfield, similar to what happened with Seamus Coleman. Just saying to someone "well we have Leighton Baines who is the best left back in the league so you're not playing until he retires" is not good management or forward planning though. Baines is a fantastic player, but a player who at 30 will slowly start to decline and need rest, and Garbutt could help in that.

and I think most impressively his set piece deliveries were bang on the money, I'd have started him in the derby ahead of oviedo for that reason alone.............would be disappointed if we let him go as he does look very promising

 

[catcherintherye]

and I think most impressively his set piece deliveries were bang on the money, I'd have started him in the derby ahead of oviedo for that reason alone.............would be disappointed if we let him go as he does look very promising

Well Yes they are. I think the job of essentially man marking a winger like Ibe/Markovic would have been a very challenging job for Garbutt whereas it suited Oviedo's low centre of gravity and this is his strong point. I don't quibble starting Oviedo.

I suppose I am questioning the broader strategy and wonder if the lad is leaving because as another poster has put above, he feels Baines will never be dropped or rotated.

 

[Eggs]

There's a lot of teams that might promise him those things but will they actually do that?

You think he will not go straight into the Liverpool team? He's our 3rd choice left back and you think he will start for them - he would be behind Moreno at the very least who's a quality player and also only 22. So he's essentially swapping our bench for theirs except time isn't on his side so the only reason he would go there is if he thought he was better than Moreno who has already won a Europa League Cup winners cup and started at Sevilla and Liverpool. He must think he's the dogs bollocks if he thinks that will happen. Rodgers might offer him a shorter term contract so he has backup and competition for Moreno but I suspect if he does sign him he would move him on after a year or two once Garbutt realizes he's not going to take Moreno's place.

Frankly if Rodgers signs him I think he would be no more than a pawn in a game of piss Martinez off. There's no doubt Rodgers has that I want to be the alpha male of managers in Liverpool. He probably still feels a bit inferior that Martinez was offered the job (and Swansea) before him.

I think it's far more likely he will end up somewhere like West Brom however they would be cautious of giving him too much money (might not be good enough) or a short term contract (might look to run it out again).

Stones had to wait until injury to Jags last season and wasn't even first choice this season. Barkley was a special case because he had been tearing up pre-season and it was plain to see the boy would be a star plus we had no-one of any ability in that role. Baines had to wait, Coleman had to wait etc

The simple truth might be that Finners is right and he doesn't have the right mentality.

...to be fair the links with the Reds are rumours. I suspect he's lined up a lucrative deal already but I'm not sure where that is. I also suspect that wherever he goes he will have better 1st team prospect. I don't know the boy well enough to comment on his attitude but he could be viewed as 3rd choice here so I don't blame him for doing what he feels is best for him.

 

[marty mcfly]

He'd be a fool to stay.

Baines will start every week, regardless of form, until he decides to retire.

Baines is 30 and already this season looks to be dropping of in form and picking up injuries plus I can see Baines being played more in the centre.

 

[royalbalou]

It would be a shame but these things happen. Sometimes there's nothing you can do. You can't simply bow to a 21 year olds demands.

Have to agree with this. If a young player is trying to hold the club to ransom to get a place in the team then it says a lot about him...or his agent. Bowing down to him would cause no end of problems within the squad as it's not as if the other players wouldn't know of the situation.
Offer the contract, discuss his first team options...if he isn't happy...get what you can for him

 

[marty mcfly]

and I think most impressively his set piece deliveries were bang on the money, I'd have started him in the derby ahead of oviedo for that reason alone.............would be disappointed if we let him go as he does look very promising

That would force Oviedo to ask to leave since he would know he has no future at the club leaving us with one 30 year old left back at the end of the season. For a couple of good crosses in one game that's a hefty price to pay.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

Baines is 30 and already this season looks to be dropping of in form and picking up injuries plus I can see Baines being played more in the centre.

Baines is as fit a player there is, he'll easily play until his mid 30's. He's also the second highest assist provider in the league so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that his forms dropping off?

 

[marty mcfly]

...to be fair the links with the Reds are rumours. I suspect he's lined up a lucrative deal already but I'm not sure where that is. I also suspect that wherever he goes he will have better 1st team prospect. I don't know the boy well enough to comment on his attitude but he could be viewed as 3rd choice here so I don't blame him for doing what he feels is best for him.

Yea it was just his agent bumping his price up in all likelihood.