Moyes to Sunderland

[GrandOldTeam]

Ahem

If someone who didn't live through the Moyes years wants to make sweeping statements and wild accusations in 20 years time then that's on them

But as long as people like me are around we'll be delighted to correct them, and also pass on the truth to the more learned ones who want to know more about our history

I'd like to think I've got a few years left in me yet to spread the good word of Davey, and I'll spread it for as long as I can to as many as will listen, as will others. And once a new generation knows, it will be passed down to another

Future generations will have more than just Wikipedia

They'll have videos, news articles, posts on forums, Tweets, you name it. Context will be a part of future debates because so much has been documented

I disagree.

Research is research. Some would even argue that society was better placed to preserve the past than what we are now.

History/time inevitable chips away context. Just like we don't know the context of Cliff Britton - an Everton manager in the 50s, in say, 2060/70, future generations will be similar with Moyes, despite the internet. We can, if we want go and research Cliff Britton. We won't.

The point remains, which David Moyes himself said - 10+years at Everton without a trophy is failure.

Harsh, but it is what it is.

His legacy is Evertonians debating whether finishing 4th once and an FA Cup final appearance in 10 years is success. I don't think Evertonians at any point in Evertons history, would ever have even debated that.

Plucky little Everton. We should just be glad we've not done a Villa or a Leeds.

2 games in the champions league qualifiers and one visit to a cup final in the next 10 years would more than do us, wouldn't it?

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

2 games in the champions league qualifiers and one visit to a cup final in the next 10 years would more than do us, wouldn't it?

Well no, because the playing field has changed mate

When Moyes took over we were down in the dumps and barely hanging on to survival as Kenwright tried to make a fiver last like a tenner

Now we have Moshiri, a possible new stadium, and an absolute sack of TV money

It's only natural expectations should change

Moyes did not have the resources his successors will have, so of course the standard we hold him to is different, that's only fair is it not?

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Indeed.

We never were going to though. Even if we had everyone fit as its just what he did/does.

I disagree

We lost that final because they were a significantly better team and our bench was mince

Full strength, we could have won that

 

[Papa Shango]

I disagree

We lost that final because they were a significantly better team and our bench was mince

Full strength, we could have won that

Of course we could have won it.

We wouldnt though because of Moyes nature. Its the reason we crumbled in every big game eventually. We scored early and then just dropped back and back and back.

The Derby Semi was the most angry I have ever been at a game mainly because he learned nothing from the Final as we did the same thing again.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Well no, because the playing field has changed mate

When Moyes took over we were down in the dumps and barely hanging on to survival as Kenwright tried to make a fiver last like a tenner

Now we have Moshiri, a possible new stadium, and an absolute sack of TV money

It's only natural expectations should change

Moyes did not have the resources his successors will have, so of course the standard we hold him to is different, that's only fair is it not?

We're not the only team with that TV money...

When Moyes took over, we hadn't won a trophy for how long?

When Moyes left, we hadn't won a trophy for how long?

If anything, I'd say it's harder now to win and compete than it was under Moyes.

Take when we finished 4th, we did so with a negative goal difference and 61 points. Where does 61 points have you finish now?

What was the top 4 is now the top 6, and we're not in it.

Benchmark Moyes against Everton's history, rather than the immediate few years before him as he blagged you.

Walter Smith's Everton was very much the exception and not the benchmark Moyes conned fans into.

NSNO, or something.

 

[Neiler]

Im with Mikey here i have to say, its all well and good saying NSNO and the like and pointing to trophies, but you also have to assess the level of risk in that period as well in comparison to other mangers and their time at Everton. The truth is we were literally minutes from relegation season after season, in the relegation zone at the time and the poorest team in the league when Moyes took over. His achievement with us given the means, was one of the best marginal achievements of that time given the context. We were in the champions league in three seasons despite his starting context.

He hit a glass ceiling and didn't have to skill set or arguably means to break it, granted by the end. Other managers won more trophies, but from start to end point, he saved the club arguably more then any other manager at Everton from probably its biggest ever risk period, other Everton managers didnt have to contend with similar adverity or had the same restrictions Moyes faced imposed.

 

[Number_25]

We're not the only team with that TV money...

When Moyes took over, we hadn't won a trophy for how long?

When Moyes left, we hadn't won a trophy for how long?

If anything, I'd say it's harder now to win and compete than it was under Moyes.

Take when we finished 4th, we did so with a negative goal difference and 61 points. Where does 61 points have you finish now?

What was the top 4 is now the top 6, and we're not in it.

Benchmark Moyes against Everton's history, rather than the immediate few years before him as he blagged you.

Walter Smith's Everton was very much the exception and not the benchmark Moyes conned fans into.

NSNO, or something.

We were crap before Smith mate, don't delude yourself.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

We're not the only team with that TV money...

When Moyes took over, we hadn't won a trophy for how long?

When Moyes left, we hadn't won a trophy for how long?

If anything, I'd say it's harder now to win and compete than it was under Moyes.

Take when we finished 4th, we did so with a negative goal difference and 61 points. Where does 61 points have you finish now?

What was the top 4 is now the top 6, and we're not in it.

Benchmark Moyes against Everton's history, rather than the immediate few years before him as he blagged you.

Walter Smith's Everton was very much the exception and not the benchmark Moyes conned fans into.

NSNO, or something.

I never said Smith's Everton was the benchmark

It was a symbol of how far the club had fallen and if a lesser manager than Moyes had taken the reigns at that time it was very likely that it wouldn't have been reversed

But it was reversed, because despite what you say Moyes did not fail as Everton manager. He brought stability and left a strong foundation for his successor to kick on. The fact that his successor botched that is not his fault

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue mate

All I'll say is that I'm glad I don't have such black and white a view of the world as you do, because it must make it very hard to be happy to live in a world without balance and reason

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Im with Mikey here i have to say, its all well and good saying NSNO and the like and pointing to trophies, but you also have to assess the level of risk in that period as well in comparison to other mangers and their time at Everton. The truth is we were literally minutes from relegation season after season, in the relegation zone at the time and the poorest team in the league when Moyes took over. His achievement with us given the means, was one of the best marginal achievements of that time given the context. We were in the champions league in three seasons despite his starting context.

He hit a glass ceiling and didn't have to skill set or arguably means to break it, granted by the end. Other managers won more trophies, but from start to end point, he saved the club arguably more then any other manager at Everton from probably its biggest ever risk period, that other Everton managers didnt have to contend or had the same restrictions imposed.

Biggest risk period Says who?

We come MUCH closer to peril under other managers.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

All I'll say is that I'm glad I don't have such black and white a view of the world as you do, because it must make it very hard to be happy to live in a world without balance and reason

On the contrary.

What I'm doing here is taking emotion/context out of it.

Which is exactly what history will do.

10+ years without a trophy.

Nobody will be arsed about him having to sign Marcus Bent.

 

[Neiler]

Says who?

We come MUCH closer to peril under other managers.

We were never so close to going to the wall given our relative frequency of threat to relegation, money begining to come into the game, and our own debt at the time.

Which managers mate, Smith, Walker, Kendall Ver3? If you are arguing they did a better job than Moyes, im not with you there.

We have the perfect comparison, the most successful manager Everton ever had given the same circumstances, under the same regime, same period and more resources almost got us relegated and was sacked. As much as i love Howard that was the case.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Which managers mate, Smith, Walker, Kendall Ver3? If you are arguing they did a better job than Moyes, im not with you there.

We have the perfect comparison, the most successful manager Everton ever had given the same circumstances, under the same regime, same period and more resources almost got us relegated and was sacked. As much as i love Howard that was the case.

Of course not. It was this bit I disagree with;

he saved the club arguably more then any other manager at Everton from probably its biggest ever risk period, other Everton managers didnt have to contend with similar adverity or had the same restrictions Moyes faced imposed.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Anyway, this ia a thread about Moyes' next failing at Sunderland to add to his Man Utd/Sociedad threads. Will leave you all to it.

 

[Neiler]

Of course not. It was this bit I disagree with;

What period in our History were we more at risk mate, im stumped by that, imagine us getting relegated in the 90s/00's and missed the period of financial growth in the PL, the lower leagues are littered with "big clubs" with decades in the top league who missed that period and are myred down there, the very lifeblood of those clubs is sapped away.

By all structural measures and by marginal reality that should have been us, bar luck and eventually the skill of a few and i very much include Moyes as a big part of that.

I think we have a lot to be grateful to him for, i know thats not your argument, more the historical stats of trophies and football is definitely heading toward that SSN sanitized route, but i think Moyes time unique was the longevity and suppose you could argue what consititues future success may not be trophies, but competing against the likes of Real Madrid every season and Moyes was the precursor to that, in terms of raising a conisstent European profile. I mean will the likes of Cahill not go down as great Everton players in comparrison to say Paul Rideout or Baines in comparrision to David Burrows because he i didnt win a trophy.

 

[Ashtonian]

Think the issue with moyes is partly when rather than what he did whilst he was here. Getting to 4th so early gave him time and the team positively reacted to that, our 11 in that time with arteta cahill jags baines yakubu leScott and the like meant we did look like we were improving. Then the 2009 final really made him look like he was about to do something.

Point is during the time you can't fault the club for keeping him because things did improve from the players to the ambition in the league. When you look back in hindsight it just looks terrible and there are many factors you can throw into there. But besides that if the final had came earlier than year 7 then perhaps it looks worse that he stayed so long . But whether you consider it the perfect form of overstaying your welcome or perhaps the lack of backing did make an impact much deeper than we thought, doesn't change the issue that it's easier to judge years later than it was during the time.

For what it's worth I will always state the biggest thing holding moyes back was himself. Despite the lack of money and what not, moyes held himself back through fear and that did imprint on the club far more than we would hope to have done.