2022/23 Nathan Patterson

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EFC_FRANCIS said:
If you're having to go back 20 years for some decent examples then that suggests we probably haven't been doing that well recently
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You’re not going to get multiple PL prospects out of your academy every year. No team gets that. The youngsters who have come through or we have bought that require development and have been good enough at Everton have made it and some have gone to the very top. We could and should change our transfer policy to buy more of these types but the ones who do come in do well.

Richarlison is potentially another one who was young when we bought him, turned him into a Brazilian international and their starting striker and sold him for 60 mill

Onana has now captained Belgium and is undoubtedly improving. He’ll probably go for another top club.

Pickford was young in goalkeeping terms and became England’s number 1

Branthwaite could well be another one

I’ve not given up on Patterson. Get him fully fit and playing regularly and I think he’ll turn out to be a good player, people are just weird about him because Benitez bought him and Dave doesn’t like him. Bit odd knocking a young lad though who’s been injured most of his time with us.

There’s a lot wrong at Everton without inventing something that we don’t really have a problem with.
 
Saint Domingo said:
You’re not going to get multiple PL prospects out of your academy every year. No team gets that. The youngsters who have come through or we have bought that require development and have been good enough at Everton have made it and some have gone to the very top. We could and should change our transfer policy to buy more of these types but the ones who do come in do well.

Richarlison is potentially another one who was young when we bought him, turned him into a Brazilian international and their starting striker and sold him for 60 mill

Onana has now captained Belgium and is undoubtedly improving. He’ll probably go for another top club.

Pickford was young in goalkeeping terms and became England’s number 1

Branthwaite could well be another one

I’ve not given up on Patterson. Get him fully fit and playing regularly and I think he’ll turn out to be a good player, people are just weird about him because Benitez bought him and Dave doesn’t like him. Bit odd knocking a young lad though who’s been injured most of his time with us.

There’s a lot wrong at Everton without inventing something that we don’t really have a problem with.
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You've just provided a load of examples of 30 million+ signings who were good before joining our first team, they were all already full time top flight players. I'm not saying we do bad with them or they don't develop. The only long term project is Branthwaite who is currently on his second loan and we will see what happens with him. I equally don't imagine we have a plan for him as much as Patterson.

Davies burst on to the scene and captained England at every youth level and is still now the exact same player as he was at 18. Kenny and Dowell both played for every England youth levels regularly in very succesful teams and never kicked on. Lookman, Vlasic, Robinson got moved on from far too quickly.

That's without even getting into others like Kean, Galloway, Ledson, Lundstrum, Gibson, Godfrey, Baningme, Garbutt and Nkounkou. Im not saying all of them couldve or shouldve made it or are the clubs fault but our successes can be counted on one hand in a 10 year span as a PL club. The only real long term project we've developed is Calvert Lewin and even then that was more a product of us repeatedly signing bum strikers and a platoon of 10s than having any real plan for him. Stones and Gordon would be the other 2 and they were both gone by 22 and weren't the finished article - The club did do well out of them though. You can count Holgate to bump up the strike rate if you want but he's currently the 5th choice centre half for us.

It's nothing personal against Patterson, hence why I also mentioned Garner, of course i hope he becomes good enough but he needs developing and we really do not develop youngsters at first team level that weren't already good enough to start with. I find it much more likely we sign a new RB than actually try and develop him because that's the type of club we are.
 
EFC_FRANCIS said:
You've just provided a load of examples of 30 million+ signings who were good before joining our first team, they were all already full time top flight players. I'm not saying we do bad with them or they don't develop. The only long term project is Branthwaite who is currently on his second loan and we will see what happens with him. I equally don't imagine we have a plan for him as much as Patterson.

Davies burst on to the scene and captained England at every youth level and is still now the exact same player as he was at 18. Kenny and Dowell both played for every England youth levels regularly in very succesful teams and never kicked on. Lookman, Vlasic, Robinson got moved on from far too quickly.

That's without even getting into others like Kean, Galloway, Ledson, Lundstrum, Gibson, Godfrey, Baningme, Garbutt and Nkounkou. Im not saying all of them couldve or shouldve made it or are the clubs fault but our successes can be counted on one hand in a 10 year span as a PL club. The only real long term project we've developed is Calvert Lewin and even then that was more a product of us repeatedly signing bum strikers and a platoon of 10s than having any real plan for him. Stones and Gordon would be the other 2 and they were both gone by 22 and weren't the finished article - The club did do well out of them though. You can count Holgate to bump up the strike rate if you want but he's currently the 5th choice centre half for us.

It's nothing personal against Patterson, hence why I also mentioned Garner, of course i hope he becomes good enough but he needs developing and we really do not develop youngsters at first team level that weren't already good enough to start with. I find it much more likely we sign a new RB than actually try and develop him because that's the type of club we are.
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All of this has to be viewed on a relative basis to what other academies are able to produce. PL teams can attract the best players around the globe, so it’s going to be difficult for academy prospects to outshine their competition.

Truth is, I actually don’t know how successful other academies have been. I’d be curious to see an analysis of us against other clubs.
 

EFC_FRANCIS said:
You've just provided a load of examples of 30 million+ signings who were good before joining our first team, they were all already full time top flight players. I'm not saying we do bad with them or they don't develop. The only long term project is Branthwaite who is currently on his second loan and we will see what happens with him. I equally don't imagine we have a plan for him as much as Patterson.

Davies burst on to the scene and captained England at every youth level and is still now the exact same player as he was at 18. Kenny and Dowell both played for every England youth levels regularly in very succesful teams and never kicked on. Lookman, Vlasic, Robinson got moved on from far too quickly.

That's without even getting into others like Kean, Galloway, Ledson, Lundstrum, Gibson, Godfrey, Baningme, Garbutt and Nkounkou. Im not saying all of them couldve or shouldve made it or are the clubs fault but our successes can be counted on one hand in a 10 year span as a PL club. The only real long term project we've developed is Calvert Lewin and even then that was more a product of us repeatedly signing bum strikers and a platoon of 10s than having any real plan for him. Stones and Gordon would be the other 2 and they were both gone by 22 and weren't the finished article - The club did do well out of them though. You can count Holgate to bump up the strike rate if you want but he's currently the 5th choice centre half for us.

It's nothing personal against Patterson, hence why I also mentioned Garner, of course i hope he becomes good enough but he needs developing and we really do not develop youngsters at first team level that weren't already good enough to start with. I find it much more likely we sign a new RB than actually try and develop him because that's the type of club we are.
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I'm not totally disagreeing with you because I agree to an extent. It has to be noted though that you can have as many pathways and plans and development ideas as you want in place, but if the player doesn't have the necessary attributes they won't make it at the top. It's a cut throat business, you have to be very, very, good to make it at PL level, and some of the names there just haven't been up to it. Davies was a good junior but you could see from very early on in the PL that he didn't really have a huge amount to his game. I don't think he's been failed, he's just not quite good enough. Same with the likes of Dowell and Kenny, they're slow and slight so they had to be extremely good to do well in the PL, and unfortunately they weren't. Robinson certainly got moved on too quickly but Vlasic and Lookman have both failed elsewhere in the PL, and Vlasic has apparently underwhelmed in Italy too.

I'm slightly concerned that Patterson is going to fall into the same sort of bracket. He's not got the best physical attributes which means he kind of needs to nail the technical stuff but he hasn't managed to do that yet. His injuries obviously haven't helped, although again that may be partly due to having to strain himself to be able to compete at this level. I'm certainly not ready to write him off but there's no doubt he's been a disappointment so far.
 
Lanolin said:
I'm not totally disagreeing with you because I agree to an extent. It has to be noted though that you can have as many pathways and plans and development ideas as you want in place, but if the player doesn't have the necessary attributes they won't make it at the top. It's a cut throat business, you have to be very, very, good to make it at PL level, and some of the names there just haven't been up to it. Davies was a good junior but you could see from very early on in the PL that he didn't really have a huge amount to his game. I don't think he's been failed, he's just not quite good enough. Same with the likes of Dowell and Kenny, they're slow and slight so they had to be extremely good to do well in the PL, and unfortunately they weren't. Robinson certainly got moved on too quickly but Vlasic and Lookman have both failed elsewhere in the PL, and Vlasic has apparently underwhelmed in Italy too.

I'm slightly concerned that Patterson is going to fall into the same sort of bracket. He's not got the best physical attributes which means he kind of needs to nail the technical stuff but he hasn't managed to do that yet. His injuries obviously haven't helped, although again that may be partly due to having to strain himself to be able to compete at this level. I'm certainly not ready to write him off but there's no doubt he's been a disappointment so far.
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He will join someone else become successful and just like Antonee Robinson we will lament another talent we should have nurtured but we were too impatient
 

Lanolin said:
I'm not totally disagreeing with you because I agree to an extent. It has to be noted though that you can have as many pathways and plans and development ideas as you want in place, but if the player doesn't have the necessary attributes they won't make it at the top. It's a cut throat business, you have to be very, very, good to make it at PL level, and some of the names there just haven't been up to it. Davies was a good junior but you could see from very early on in the PL that he didn't really have a huge amount to his game. I don't think he's been failed, he's just not quite good enough. Same with the likes of Dowell and Kenny, they're slow and slight so they had to be extremely good to do well in the PL, and unfortunately they weren't. Robinson certainly got moved on too quickly but Vlasic and Lookman have both failed elsewhere in the PL, and Vlasic has apparently underwhelmed in Italy too.

I'm slightly concerned that Patterson is going to fall into the same sort of bracket. He's not got the best physical attributes which means he kind of needs to nail the technical stuff but he hasn't managed to do that yet. His injuries obviously haven't helped, although again that may be partly due to having to strain himself to be able to compete at this level. I'm certainly not ready to write him off but there's no doubt he's been a disappointment so far.
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Davies for me had some things he could do well. He progressed the ball really well for his age. But he then got thrown into senior football early and was effectively used as just a body to occupy space in the team where it was needed. He was never given a role to play but more as a warm body or stop gap for whoever was missing that game. That's fine if you want to get 3 points in a given week but it's not great for a players long term development. England U21s did the exact same with him. We never molded him into anything

Kenny we had no idea what to do with, one minute he was a squad player, then he was shipped off on loan with a view to sell, then back to being a squad player, loaned again and actually trying to re-sign him at the end (which may actually indicate they were planning on loaning Patterson)
Dowell I don't think was ever making it but I don't think he would've done the damage the Sigurdsson and Klaassen transfers done if we simply gave him a chance after the loan. Which is sort of also my point, the difference in quality between a Klassen and a dowell or a Kenny and a Martina is next to nothing. Nkounkou vs Vinagre is another one. Lookman had a very respectable loan at Leicester and they tried to sign him, not saying he'd be a world beater but back in the day we signed a finished 20 million Walcott on 120k a week rather than giving him a run of games.

Back on topic I see Patterson I think the same way, not great athletically, positionally or technically (yet). A lot of passion and energy but JJK had that. I just have 0 confidence in the club developing him in the current situation because theyve already shown time and again they will replace a kid for a slightly better older player. It's even tougher now we actually need those marginal gains and there's a very legitimate argument we shouldn't be focusing on developing a player in favour of an additional 4 points a season.
 
EFC_FRANCIS said:
Davies for me had some things he could do well. He progressed the ball really well for his age. But he then got thrown into senior football early and was effectively used as just a body to occupy space in the team where it was needed. He was never given a role to play but more as a warm body or stop gap for whoever was missing that game. That's fine if you want to get 3 points in a given week but it's not great for a players long term development. England U21s did the exact same with him. We never molded him into anything

Kenny we had no idea what to do with, one minute he was a squad player, then he was shipped off on loan with a view to sell, then back to being a squad player, loaned again and actually trying to re-sign him at the end (which may actually indicate they were planning on loaning Patterson)
Dowell I don't think was ever making it but I don't think he would've done the damage the Sigurdsson and Klaassen transfers done if we simply gave him a chance after the loan. Which is sort of also my point, the difference in quality between a Klassen and a dowell or a Kenny and a Martina is next to nothing. Nkounkou vs Vinagre is another one. Lookman had a very respectable loan at Leicester and they tried to sign him, not saying he'd be a world beater but back in the day we signed a finished 20 million Walcott on 120k a week rather than giving him a run of games.

Back on topic I see Patterson I think the same way, not great athletically, positionally or technically (yet). A lot of passion and energy but JJK had that. I just have 0 confidence in the club developing him in the current situation because theyve already shown time and again they will replace a kid for a slightly better older player. It's even tougher now we actually need those marginal gains and there's a very legitimate argument we shouldn't be focusing on developing a player in favour of an additional 4 points a season.
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…Patterson has been a huge disappointment as far as I’m concerned (except for a spell where he died for the cause defensively in games like Leeds away). Saying that, I totally disagree with your view that he has similar ‘athleticism’ to Kenny. It would be much more accurate to say Kenny has similar athleticism to Betty, my 94 year old mother in law.
 
Eggs said:
…Patterson has been a huge disappointment as far as I’m concerned (except for a spell where he died for the cause defensively in games like Leeds away). Saying that, I totally disagree with your view that he has similar ‘athleticism’ to Kenny. It would be much more accurate to say Kenny has similar athleticism to Betty, my 94 year old mother in law.
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Kenny is slow but I wouldn't describe Patterson as having blistering pace either. Certainly not enough to make up for what he lacks in other areas
 
EFC_FRANCIS said:
Kenny is slow but I wouldn't describe Patterson as having blistering pace either. Certainly not enough to make up for what he lacks in other areas
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….Kenny is woeful for a full back, he has absolutely no powers of recovery. Once your past him he’s out of the game.

Somebody on here will recall, but there was a game at Goodison where Patterson recovered at the Park End to stop a certain goal. He’s not a speedster but he’s a powerful runner. It’s something he should exploit from an attacking perspective because he’s difficult to stop in full stride.

if Coleman is out, the others carry much greater risk, regardless of the loss of leadership quality.
 

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