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Nick Clegg V Nigel Farage.

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Just been scanning over this a bit, and one came to mind, the word 'racism' used when in fact disliking or even hatred for a person or group of people based upon their religion is not racism
Islam is not a race, it's a religion, dislike, distrust or even outright hatred of someone based upon that is Religious intolerance or Religious Bigotry.

For what it's worth, the UK has turned into something i don't recognize in many parts of it these days, some may say 'oh well we have always been a multicultural society' and whilst in many ways theirs a truth to that, the reality is more complex, Britain was not multicultural the way it is being perceived these days, the influx of other cultures was either imposed (way way back) through being invaded by scandanavians/romans/french, conquered etc
Much later through the empire a new wave of migration and 'multi-culturism' happened, and those people coming to the Britain via that were British by the nature of being from the empire, they embraced British values and in many ways admired the British way of life, their struggles were the struggle to be accepted as part of British society, not to have the own culture and religion adopted by Britain and to change the very nature of what they wished to be a part of.

Nowadays the influx of peoples into Britain is far different in its make up, from people fleeing for economic or reasons of persecution (asylum seekers), so called social migration, for a better standard of living inside the boundaries of the EU, and several other forms of immigration - original 'first wave migrants' who subsequently decide to bring a wife from home for their grandchild etc etc etc and then the darker side, trafficked peoples, to work in a variety of industries - including prostitution, forced labour etc

The Major issue, does not come from people who come to Britain, who wish to become British, to integrate into its society seamlessly and to raise their families as British, it comes from those who come and then wish to retain their 'cultural identity', be it by practicing their religion, insisting certain laws of the land do not apply to them, or demanding special treatment above those of a native citizen, including such abhorrent practices such as genital mutilation, arranged (forced ofttimes) marriages to someone 'back home' - their words not mine.


For those who say their fine with multiculturalism and the changing nature of Britain. Take a second a look around some parts of this country, their unrecognizable from when i was growing up, and the only time a country changes as fast as a lot of the western countries have changed recently in historical terms is through invasion.

Anyone who criticizes any of this is shot down as being a racist, a bigot, homophobes, sexists etc, or any one of a plethora of nice pocket 'liberal' phrases i could list.
Meanwhile its fine for a person to accuse another of being a racist, sexist, homophobes, bigot etc, basically without any repercussion.
say i walk down the street and call someone the 'n' word, or a homophobic slur religious insult etc in front of a policeman, i would be arrested, if i did it in a TV studio i would be castigated by the media, the studio audience, and every one else on the panel of the show.
Flip the same situation and someone called me racist, bigot, homophobe etc, for expressing a personal belief on a subject - the person delivering the slur or insult against me would be applauded by the audience the media would print his opinion as almost fact with a strong slant towards his POV, or the policeman would do nothing.

Some may say but Islam is not bad by nature, its just a few lunatics interpretations on it, i would say to them wake up and actually use your eyes and ears and listen to the way it is treated and bent over backwards to in the media and politically, then ask yourself how many new churches have you seen open in the last ten years?and then ask how many mosques have you seen opened? It doesn't matter one bit that a religion isn't by nature 'bad', or dangerous, if its interpreted often enough by people in the dangerous way it is by its very nature a danger.


I'll probably get slated big time for this post, anyone who does so just answer honestly one question to me though first, would you want your daughter marrying a Muslim lad who practiced his religion devoutly - not some extremist, just a devout Muslim who stuck to the edicts of the Koran?
 
Just been scanning over this a bit, and one came to mind, the word 'racism' used when in fact disliking or even hatred for a person or group of people based upon their religion is not racism
Islam is not a race, it's a religion, dislike, distrust or even outright hatred of someone based upon that is Religious intolerance or Religious Bigotry.

For what it's worth, the UK has turned into something i don't recognize in many parts of it these days, some may say 'oh well we have always been a multicultural society' and whilst in many ways theirs a truth to that, the reality is more complex, Britain was not multicultural the way it is being perceived these days, the influx of other cultures was either imposed (way way back) through being invaded by scandanavians/romans/french, conquered etc
Much later through the empire a new wave of migration and 'multi-culturism' happened, and those people coming to the Britain via that were British by the nature of being from the empire, they embraced British values and in many ways admired the British way of life, their struggles were the struggle to be accepted as part of British society, not to have the own culture and religion adopted by Britain and to change the very nature of what they wished to be a part of.

Nowadays the influx of peoples into Britain is far different in its make up, from people fleeing for economic or reasons of persecution (asylum seekers), so called social migration, for a better standard of living inside the boundaries of the EU, and several other forms of immigration - original 'first wave migrants' who subsequently decide to bring a wife from home for their grandchild etc etc etc and then the darker side, trafficked peoples, to work in a variety of industries - including prostitution, forced labour etc

The Major issue, does not come from people who come to Britain, who wish to become British, to integrate into its society seamlessly and to raise their families as British, it comes from those who come and then wish to retain their 'cultural identity', be it by practicing their religion, insisting certain laws of the land do not apply to them, or demanding special treatment above those of a native citizen, including such abhorrent practices such as genital mutilation, arranged (forced ofttimes) marriages to someone 'back home' - their words not mine.


For those who say their fine with multiculturalism and the changing nature of Britain. Take a second a look around some parts of this country, their unrecognizable from when i was growing up, and the only time a country changes as fast as a lot of the western countries have changed recently in historical terms is through invasion.

Anyone who criticizes any of this is shot down as being a racist, a bigot, homophobes, sexists etc, or any one of a plethora of nice pocket 'liberal' phrases i could list.
Meanwhile its fine for a person to accuse another of being a racist, sexist, homophobes, bigot etc, basically without any repercussion.
say i walk down the street and call someone the 'n' word, or a homophobic slur religious insult etc in front of a policeman, i would be arrested, if i did it in a TV studio i would be castigated by the media, the studio audience, and every one else on the panel of the show.
Flip the same situation and someone called me racist, bigot, homophobe etc, for expressing a personal belief on a subject - the person delivering the slur or insult against me would be applauded by the audience the media would print his opinion as almost fact with a strong slant towards his POV, or the policeman would do nothing.

Some may say but Islam is not bad by nature, its just a few lunatics interpretations on it, i would say to them wake up and actually use your eyes and ears and listen to the way it is treated and bent over backwards to in the media and politically, then ask yourself how many new churches have you seen open in the last ten years?and then ask how many mosques have you seen opened? It doesn't matter one bit that a religion isn't by nature 'bad', or dangerous, if its interpreted often enough by people in the dangerous way it is by its very nature a danger.


I'll probably get slated big time for this post, anyone who does so just answer honestly one question to me though first, would you want your daughter marrying a Muslim lad who practiced his religion devoutly - not some extremist, just a devout Muslim who stuck to the edicts of the Koran?
I would prefer my daughter, if I had one, to not marry an extremist, or devout follower of any religion. The fundamentalist Christians and Jews, all part of the Abrahamic creed, weild more power, influence and threat than the mad mullahs you are scared of, they control the society you see change, for their interests. Of course there are powerful Islamic centres, the house of Saud for example, and you should know who they work to and with.
Thinking the little people on the streets are dangerous keeps you occupied with a scapegoat, when the reality is you've been taken for a ride and played for a fool by the very system you feel a need to protect. Very myopic and very bizarre.
ps would you ask the same question about an Hacidic jew?
 
Here's a surprise - on the point of immigration today being harmful to the working class I agree with you.

I can argue that immigration is a capitalist ploy to bring down the cost of labour by means of increased competition.

I've been a socialist all my life, but I don't subscribe to the internationalism of socialism when in this case, immigration is used to exploit the indigenous working class workforce.

On a global scale socialists should argue against the exploitation of the workforce by any means, including the use of immigration to reduce labour and wage costs.

That would be alright if socialist Russia weren't quite so prickly about its subjects traveling abroad for 50 odd years. Free movement of people is a wonderful thing, and surely a basic human right? If you want to go somewhere and can support yourself in doing so, it should be no one elses business what you do.
 
Islam is an extreme religion by it's very nature. The Quran is a list of commands and the peaceful parts of it are superseded by the violent parts.

Do I believe all Muslims are going to blow us up? No. Of course not. Do I feel that the growth (sharia courts, mosques rapidly sprouting up, halal food being consumed by us all to suit a minority) of a political ideology used to persecute millions and control it's followers in our country specifically, and the lack of willing for us to stand up and say enoughs enough when say, one of the largest and highest attended mosques in England is proved to be preaching extremism to thousands, is a danger to the free society we know? Absolutely.

We talk about equality and tolerance. Try and date a Muslim girl and see what her 'moderate' family members have to say about her dating a white boy, or a black boy, or a general non Muslim for that matter. It's illegal to burn a Quran but not a bible. It's all happening in front of us. Some of you see small things here and there but I see lots of little things creating a fairly grim bigger picture. Just because your average Muslim isn't going to be a nasty terror lingering hate preacher doesn't mean that Islam itself, in it's current unreformed state, with it's sharia based commands throughout it's holy book, isn't a threat to society. And I include Muslims being born into it over here as well. If they could speak the girls found in suitcases, the 7/7 bomb victims, the girls who have had there genitals mutilated on our watch, the thousands upon thousands who have been exposed to hate preaching in mainstream mosques with seemingly no challenge, they would all say the same.


Farage or something.

So, what is the solution?
 
That would be alright if socialist Russia weren't quite so prickly about its subjects traveling abroad for 50 odd years. Free movement of people is a wonderful thing, and surely a basic human right? If you want to go somewhere and can support yourself in doing so, it should be no one elses business what you do.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this statement.

In principle.
 

So, what is the solution?

The million dollar question.

A start would be to take away islam's untouchable status. I'd ban the Saudi and Pakistani funded 'Islamic learning centres', I'd monitor mosques closely and stop any more from being built as there is already more than enough to fit the population. I'd put a stop to sharia courts ( which no one on here seems to want to talk about). I'd label halal food appropriately and keep it well away from the rest of the population or at leat give them a choice on if they wanted to consume it or not. I'd certainly ban the 'call to prayer' from being blasted out in the streets of our towns. I'd push for reform as Islam is the only religion left (en masse) that seems to refuse to adapt to a 21st century way of living.

If all of these things happened, whilst not conflicting with a persons right to practice their religion, then you would see suspisicion and 'islamophobia' drop I'm sure of it.

People don't trust Islam because of all of the above and also the fact that if you look at the world, does Islam seem like it could be part of a tolerant western society? Reform is needed. I would urge you to look into the Quran. Look at it's rules and commands. Look at the part where the peaceful verses are superseded by the violent verses ( again which no one wants to address) and then tell me you're surprised that in the world where it's practiced is filled with such violence, religious supremacy and oppression.

I just don't want that here, even in some small corner of a no mark town. I fear for women especially.
 
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The million dollar question.

A start would be to take away islam's untouchable status. I'd ban the Saudi and Pakistani funded 'Islamic learning centres', I'd monitor mosques closely and stop any more from being built as there is already more than enough to fit the population. I'd put a stop to sharia courts ( which no one on here seems to want to talk about). I'd label halal food appropriately and keep it well away from the rest of the population or at leat give them a choice on if they wanted to consume it or not. I'd certainly ban the 'call to prayer' from being blasted out in the streets of our towns. I'd push for reform as Islam is the only religion left that seems to refuse to adapt to a 21st century way of living.

If all of these things happened, whilst not conflicting with a persons right to practice their religion, then you would see suspisicion and 'islamophobia' drop I'm sure of it.

People don't trust Islam because of all of the above and also the fact that if you look at the world, does Islam seem like it could be part of a tolerant western society? Reform is needed. I would urge you to look into the Quran. Look at it's rules and commands. Look at the part where the peaceful verses are superseded by the violent verses ( again which no one wants to address) and then tell me you're surprised that in the world where it's practiced is filled with such violence, religious supremacy and oppression.

I just don't want that here, even in some small corner of a no mark town. I fear for women especially.

You obviously pay a lot more attention to the "issue" than I do (I don't even live in the UK), so to play devils advocate and turn the situation around, would you also ban church bells on a Sunday moring and stop more churches being built?
I'm really not sure what your issue is with Halal meat though - it just means the cow has been killed by a blade instead of an airbolt and the slaughterman says a little prayer. Nothing else is different.

I would agree that most of the Islamic countries are not places you would want to live, but then again, I wouldn't want to live in the Southern states of the USA either for the same reason.
 
You obviously pay a lot more attention to the "issue" than I do (I don't even live in the UK), so to play devils advocate and turn the situation around, would you also ban church bells on a Sunday moring and stop more churches being built?
I'm really not sure what your issue is with Halal meat though - it just means the cow has been killed by a blade instead of an airbolt and the slaughterman says a little prayer. Nothing else is different.

I would agree that most of the Islamic countries are not places you would want to live, but then again, I wouldn't want to live in the Southern states of the USA either for the same reason.

No we live in a Christian country, all be it a tolerant one. The decline of churches I don't neasessarily have issue with but when coupled with the rise if mosques I find it a problem.

It's the principle of halal meat and the fact that people who don't want to eat it don't get given a choice. Sometimes it's not even labelled. But as long the Muslims are happy who's arsed? And the ethics of it arnt as clean cut as you say, as the animal is left to bleed out and not stunned. But anyway, the fact that a minority religious requirement is now part of all of our lives is wrong in anyone's world. Halal and sharia have no place in the 21st century.
 
No we live in a Christian country, all be it a tolerant one. The decline of churches I don't neasessarily have issue with but when coupled with the rise if mosques I find it a problem.

It's the principle of halal meat and the fact that people who don't want to eat it don't get given a choice. Sometimes it's not even labelled. But as long the Muslims are happy who's arsed? And the ethics of it arnt as clean cut as you say, as the animal is left to bleed out and not stunned. But anyway, the fact that a minority religious requirement is now part of all of our lives is wrong in anyone's world. Halal and sharia have no place in the 21st century.
Not sure if you have ever been to an abbattoir, but there is nothing unethical about producing hala beef. I have worked in the food industry for over 20 years and have plenty of experience of visiting both halal and non-halal abbattoirs.
For non halal meat, the cow is washed, taken into the slaughter pen and killed with an airbolt to the head. About 1 in 5 cows require several shots to kill and it is thrashing about as much as it can, as you would expect when it is getting hammered in the head repeatedly. It then has its throat cut and hung upside down to bleed out.
For halal meat, the only difference is that the cow can only receive one single airbolt to the head to stun it, then has its throat cut while still alive (although it is near unconsciousness). This must be a single slice, not hacking away at it.
There is absolutely nothing unethical about halal meat production. Sure, there are spposedly halal abbattoirs in some countries where the cows are mistreated and tortured, but there are just as many, if not more, non halal abbattoirs where the same happens.

And if you are still really worried about halal meat - eat bacon ;)
 

Not sure if you have ever been to an abbattoir, but there is nothing unethical about producing hala beef. I have worked in the food industry for over 20 years and have plenty of experience of visiting both halal and non-halal abbattoirs.
For non halal meat, the cow is washed, taken into the slaughter pen and killed with an airbolt to the head. About 1 in 5 cows require several shots to kill and it is thrashing about as much as it can, as you would expect when it is getting hammered in the head repeatedly. It then has its throat cut and hung upside down to bleed out.
For halal meat, the only difference is that the cow can only receive one single airbolt to the head to stun it, then has its throat cut while still alive (although it is near unconsciousness). This must be a single slice, not hacking away at it.
There is absolutely nothing unethical about halal meat production. Sure, there are spposedly halal abbattoirs in some countries where the cows are mistreated and tortured, but there are just as many, if not more, non halal abbattoirs where the same happens.

And if you are still really worried about halal meat - eat bacon ;)

Whilst sometimes you are correct, sometimes they are just sliced and left to bleed out.

Anyway does it really matter?

Its the fact that a minority practice is being forced upon the general public. If it was the other way around there would uproar, calls for beheadings, protests, violence you name it.

It's not freedom of choice, it's the opposite. I firmly believe (NOT ALL INDIVIDUAL MUSLIMS THINK THIS WAY DISCLAIMER) that Islam as a religious ideology seeks to impose its views upon others and is offended by criticism and resistance to this.

Halal meat does not mean we are under an impending Islamic take over threat, but again, its just another example of it's will to impose itself upon others. Am I racist for not wanting to unknowingly eat halal? OK then. Muslims must be racist for not wanting to eat non halal meat then. It's a two way street. These supposed liberal minded and progressive thinkers actually do nothing to help relations. They fuel a growing resentment. I for one would love for people to practice whatever religion they choose so long as they don't enforce it on others and so long as they realise this is a Christian country with westernised laws. At this present time, with non muslims constantly pandering to the whinging of a 'few' (as some of you would have it- Im not so sure) then of course you will fuel opposition and get people tarnishing ALL muslims with the same brush.

Just the other day it was found that 1 in 5 prison inmates were Muslim. Not Asian. Muslim. And instead of thinking 'how can we work with members of a moderate Islam who live here peacefully and to our laws to stop young (or old) muslims from thinking they above the law (you know, it does teach it in the Quran lol)?' the question that was asked was 'are the police racist and picking on Muslims?'.

For social harmony, stuff like this has to stop. Everyone must be treated equally and if there is a problem within a specific community, lets not be afraid to tackle it yeah?
 

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