Nick Clegg V Nigel Farage.

[Blue 1]

Sometimes people refuse to believe. Just do your research on the Quran and sharia law.

You need to do some research from serious scholars not badly researched and unreferenced websites and blogs, and actually learn about research methods before telling others to "do your research".

 

[Toffeelover]

Jobs can be anywhere with an Internet connection. It might surprise you to know that us mods don't all go about our work from Danny's front room.

When did you last try to make a car from home on the internet, or build a military jet, or construct a submarine, or build a house. You really ought to get out of your little cocoon of smuggery and see the rest of the world other than through a computer.

 

[Toffeelover]

he's just presenting a statistic, don't think bruce was using it to hang an argument on

A very inappropriate statistic and has no bearing on the theme of the thread in relation to immigration, a better map would have been to show the nuclei of jobs.

 

[Kurt.]

...\/. Rrrrrrrepresent y'all

 

[dholliday]

We just won't agree so there's no point. If you think Christianity and Judaism etc are as big a threat as Islam and sharia then fair enough. But I would urge you to look at the rules of the Quran and certainly the difference when it comes reformation. Then you can make an informed decision on Islamic laws being passed here.

The Muslims are not as unified as you give them 'credit' for. My city has (at least) 10% Muslims and they alone are hugely varied in their beliefs and many don't have an agenda beyond providing for their families and living with respect to their neighbours.

The most unifying thing of all Muslims is probably the value of family. If Islam is to dominate Western Culture, it's only by the accident that they are more family-orientated than the modern Westerner is. They look after their elders, young parents remain together until at least the offspring are grown and generally the unit of family is a constant. It's extended into business, and alliances with other families of similar faith are bonded by marriage, which extends more business.

That's all they're doing. We, the west, used to have such strong family ideals but they've been a killer sacrifice of the idealistic individualist movement of the late-60's (which I support) which has sadly morphed into a media-supported individualist consumer society dependent on capitalism (which I don't support). The state can do little but play along, tho' it gamely tries its best to offer advantages to families.

If, in 500 years time, the non-Muslim is outnumbered in Western lands simply by virtue of his not focussing on the family, then why should we blame the Muslim? Tho' interestingly, young Muslim women feel empowered by the feminist-orientated society of the West, and I personally know of a few cases where young mothers have left their Arabic/Turkish husbands (I had relationships with two of them), taking their kids with them, because they feel the father's Quran-interpretation was too strict. The mothers remain Muslim, but with a softer, more holistic, interpretation.

In this aspect they're no different to Western single mothers, except they follow a spiritual faith. The problem with this faith is that for some people it can be so addictive that their love of Allah becomes above all things, even family. They lose sight of the people in their lives because of their devotion to what they believe is The Truth Of Everything. This leads to them following inane rules in pursuit of this devotion to their god.

This sensation is very common among most Muslims, but it's not unifying enough to actually attempt any sort of globalised movement. It's not the right kind of energy for that, it instead focusses more on the tiny circle of life they have: self, faith, family, friends, work, play.

The Christian Crusades had an altogether different energy way back when, it had a direct domineering vibe, and it's this kind of energy you need if you want to impose your own way of life upon a different land.


So at most you could argue that Muslims are attempting the invasion by unconscious stealth, but even that doesn't add up, as their unity isn't binding enough for this to work in any respectable future-model I've seen.


Anyway, we can't stop immigration now, the capitalist society we've fed is dependent on it. Plus 5-10% of our population are already descendants of Muslim immigrants. The seed is already sewn, whatever that seed may be. UKIP aren't gonna change that.

That seed is clearly what Enoch Powell meant, with his rivers of blood speech. But the blame (if we really are to point here) is in the devaluation of the family unit in Western capitalist society, and devaluation not by the state even, but by its own people, seduced by faux-individualism.

 

[magicjuan]

The Muslims are not as unified as you give them 'credit' for. My city has (at least) 10% Muslims and they alone are hugely varied in their beliefs and many don't have an agenda beyond providing for their families and living with respect to their neighbours.

The most unifying thing of all Muslims is probably the value of family. If Islam is to dominate Western Culture, it's only by the accident that they are more family-orientated than the modern Westerner is. They look after their elders, young parents remain together until at least the offspring are grown and generally the unit of family is a constant. It's extended into business, and alliances with other families of similar faith are bonded by marriage, which extends more business.

That's all they're doing. We, the west, used to have such strong family ideals but they've been a killer sacrifice of the idealistic individualist movement of the late-60's (which I support) which has sadly morphed into a media-supported individualist consumer society dependent on capitalism (which I don't support). The state can do little but play along, tho' it gamely tries its best to offer advantages to families.

If, in 500 years time, the non-Muslim is outnumbered in Western lands simply by virtue of his not focussing on the family, then why should we blame the Muslim? Tho' interestingly, young Muslim women feel empowered by the feminist-orientated society of the West, and I personally know of a few cases where young mothers have left their Arabic/Turkish husbands (I had relationships with two of them), taking their kids with them, because they feel the father's Quran-interpretation was too strict. The mothers remain Muslim, but with a softer, more holistic, interpretation.

In this aspect they're no different to Western single mothers, except they follow a spiritual faith. The problem with this faith is that for some people it can be so addictive that their love of Allah becomes above all things, even family. They lose sight of the people in their lives because of their devotion to what they believe is The Truth Of Everything. This leads to them following inane rules in pursuit of this devotion to their god.

This sensation is very common among most Muslims, but it's not unifying enough to actually attempt any sort of globalised movement. It's not the right kind of energy for that, it instead focusses more on the tiny circle of life they have: family, friends, work, play.

The Christian Crusades had an altogether different energy way back when, it had a direct domineering vibe, and it's this kind of energy you need if you want to impose your own way of life upon a different land.


So at most you could argue that Muslims are attempting the invasion by unconscious stealth, but even that doesn't add up, as their unity isn't binding enough for this to work in any respectable future-model I've seen.


Anyway, we can't stop immigration now, the capitalist society we've fed is dependent on it. Plus 5-10% of our population are already descendants of Muslim immigrants. The seed is already sewn, whatever that seed may be. UKIP aren't gonna change that.

That seed is clearly what Enoch Powell meant, with his rivers of blood speech. But the blame (if we really are to point here) is in the devaluation of the family unit in Western capitalist society, and devaluation not by the state even, but by its own people, seduced by faux-individualism.

We, the west, swapped commonality and society for greed, in that lies all its problems.
Well said and well put

 

[chicoazul]

I think I know the solution. Just vote for whoever you like and let other people vote for whoever they like and then whoever wins will have done the best job of promoting themselves or their policies.

Just as long as that's not the tories.

 

[EFCNIK]

You need to do some research from serious scholars not badly researched and unreferenced websites and blogs, and actually learn about research methods before telling others to "do your research".

There are many out there, plenty of ex Muslims as well. I just literally can't be arsed going to the effort of justifying myself to randomers on the net. All the info is out there.

Youtube critics of Islam or something. You'll probably just stare at the screen like no no no cat and mutter something about fear and tolerance like the self riteous douchbag somewhere above.

It's all there. I'm just really not that bothered about what you think as individuals but collectively I think your ignorance of sharia law and the persecution of millions around the globe today is a worry for everyone. Tolerant and peaceful Muslims included.

 

[Goat]

You tell em Nik.

 

[Tubey]

There are many out there, plenty of ex Muslims as well. I just literally can't be arsed going to the effort of justifying myself to randomers on the net. All the info is out there.

Youtube critics of Islam or something. You'll probably just stare at the screen like no no no cat and mutter something about fear and tolerance like the self riteous douchbag somewhere above.

It's all there. I'm just really not that bothered about what you think as individuals but collectively I think your ignorance of sharia law and the persecution of millions around the globe today is a worry for everyone. Tolerant and peaceful Muslims included.

Did he just request research from serious scholars, and in response you suggest Youtubing critics of Islam is the way to go?

Are you deliberately taking the piss?

 

[Seamus Colemole]

There are many out there, plenty of ex Muslims as well. I just literally can't be arsed going to the effort of justifying myself to randomers on the net. All the info is out there.

Youtube critics of Islam or something. You'll probably just stare at the screen like no no no cat and mutter something about fear and tolerance like the self riteous douchbag somewhere above.

It's all there. I'm just really not that bothered about what you think as individuals but collectively I think your ignorance of sharia law and the persecution of millions around the globe today is a worry for everyone. Tolerant and peaceful Muslims included.

When did you first decide to read the quran?

 

[Royal]

I am not going to say anything about Sharia law itself and whether or not it is a good thing but frankly anyone who wants to live under it can live in a nation that has it, England is a protestant nation with protestant values. If this bothered me so much as a catholic I would tell myself to eff off to Ireland.
Integrate or don't live here, I'd say that to anyone.

 

[Tubey]

I am not going to say anything about Sharia law itself and whether or not it is a good thing but frankly anyone who wants to live under it can live in a nation that has it, England is a protestant nation with protestant values. If this bothered me so much as a catholic I would tell myself to eff off to Ireland.
Integrate or don't live here, I'd say that to anyone.

You do realise that as a Catholic living in England there are an incredible amount of concessions to your religion and culture in our society - more so than Islam can ever hope to have? I should know, technically being one!

If you WERE as marginalised as the Muslims are, then you'd have a very different opinion. You haven't had to integrate here; it's already a part of the system and you clearly take that for granted.

 

[Walken]

You do realise that as a Catholic living in England there are an incredible amount of concessions to your religion and culture in our society - more so than Islam can ever hope to have? I should know, technically being one!

If you WERE as marginalised as the Muslims are, then you'd have a very different opinion. You haven't had to integrate here; it's already a part of the system and you clearly take that for granted.

Don't bring facts or common sense into this please mate

 

[Royal]

You do realise that as a Catholic living in England there are an incredible amount of concessions to your religion and culture in our society - more so than Islam can ever hope to have? I should know, technically being one!

If you WERE as marginalised as the Muslims are, then you'd have a very different opinion. You haven't had to integrate here; it's already a part of the system and you clearly take that for granted.

Not to the level of Sharia law and Sharia courts. I am not saying they shouldn't be allowed to have some little things but overall I am talking about Sharia and anything on that level which would challenge our actual legal systems and throw them aside for those using them.