Poll: Koeman vs Supercomputer - Will Everton finish above 7th?

[Saint Domingo]

Interesting point this.

I think looking back it's easy to forget some of the players that Spurs for example had around that period. I can recall at one point them having Berbatov, Keane, Defoe and Mido as strikers. About 234341 midfielders and a fit Ledley King. I think the rest of the league has improved but I'm not sure the top six have.

That's my point, we were finishing ahead of that side at times. We were also finishing ahead of a Villa team with Barry Milner Downing Young Petrov playing for them. We should be challenging this top 6 now no question in my mind about that.

Some people seem to not want to admit though that the team Moyes assembled in their prime (Jags Lescott Baines Coleman Arteta Cahill Pienaar Osman Yakubu) had a huge amount of quality in it and that was the reason we finished consistently in that top 7. Arteta did his cruciate and was still good enough to play for Arsenal, Lescott went to City, Baines, Coleman and Jags have all declined and are still first team for us. Quite simply they were a great group of players with a lot more quality than any of the sides we've put out in recent years (with the exception of Lukaku).

Instead there's a lazy narrative that says Moyes hoofed his way to fifth but hit a glass cieling yet Martinez has no limits even though he struggled to get us in the top half 2 out of 3 seasons. At the very least Koeman has to return the quality of the squad to the level Moyes had it at.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

Interesting point this.

I think looking back it's easy to forget some of the players that Spurs for example had around that period. I can recall at one point them having Berbatov, Keane, Defoe and Mido as strikers. About 234341 midfielders and a fit Ledley King. I think the rest of the league has improved but I'm not sure the top six have.

Also worth noting that I believe the all round quality of football in England has dropped, I only say this because anybody who shows a half decent bit of ability is snapped up into the big boys reserves. So many times I see transfer going through where the player being bought is not really needed, its just to stop another rival getting the player for cheap or getting them at all.

Moyes had built a cracking team that just needed that extra quality, I would of took bent or defoe of spurs to help us turn 1-1 into 2-1. So many games we walked away feeling like we are so close to breaking into the top four again.

 

[McBain]

Get to bed Lizzie Birdsworth.

 

[davek]

In some ways yes, in other ways no. There is more money for everyone now, we are arguably on a level playing field with most of the league outside of 5 or 6 clubs. Back in Moyes' era we were one of the lowest spenders in the league, the top 4 were largely imperious, and yet we still saw off the likes of Spurs Villa Newcastle sides with far more resources than us to finish top 6 (even 4th once). I think it was a disgrace that these achievements were derided at the time or patronised now (not by you) and European qualification is still the benchmark I hold any good Everton manager to.

Actually, if you look at the net spending of Moyes period in charge between 2002-2008/9 then Everton were decent net spenders, and though we weren't in the big spenders category of the financial elite by any means we were something like 9th or 10th best overall in terms of fees paid and wage bill. In that period he had us punching financially above our weight to the tune of 1 or two places (average 8th place finish). Of course, the roof fell in after 2009 when Uncle Bill had a couple of firesales for a few seasons to keep the banks at bay and net spend went right down...though picked up before he left.

It was a commendable effort in that 2002-2009 period considering what had gone on before, but it wasn't miraculous and it doesn't deserve the hoopla you give it above.

 

[davek]

You talk some complete and utter bollocks most of the time Dave.There is no reason why all six of the teams you mention should not be competing for a top four birth, right up until the last game of the season. Your logic is ?

Did Chelsea and Liverpool compete for a CL spot last season? Did Liverpool and Spurs the season before that? And the season before that one did Spurs and United?

Each of the last three seasons has seen at least two of the favoured CL spot finishers have forgettable seasons.

That's my logic.

 

[Muggins]

Honestly, I reckon we are in for a period of manager merry go round.

I don't think Koeman will be here long at all.

 

[ianefc]

Did Chelsea and Liverpool compete for a CL spot last season? Did Liverpool and Spurs the season before that? And the season before that one did Spurs and United?

Each of the last three seasons has seen at least two of the favoured CL spot finishers have forgettable seasons.

That's my logic.

You do have a point, this time. The only thing that is different this time is the calibre of manager at those teams. By that I mean Mourinho, Klopp and Pochettino are far superior to Rodgers, AVB and Moyes, the last two aided us in 13/14. Chelsea and UTD look the most stagnant to me at the moment. We shall see, but if the expected top 6 make it into those positions with us 7th I can't see how that's a fail. IF like you say 1 or even 2 of them have a forgettable season then I make you bang right if we don't capitalise much like we didn't capitalise in either of the last 2 seasons.

 

[davek]

You do have a point, this time. The only thing that is different this time is the calibre of manager at those teams. By that I mean Mourinho, Klopp and Pochettino are far superior to Rodgers, AVB and Moyes, the last two aided us in 13/14. Chelsea and UTD look the most stagnant to me at the moment. We shall see, but if the expected top 6 make it into those positions with us 7th I can't see how that's a fail. IF like you say 1 or even 2 of them have a forgettable season then I make you bang right if we don't capitalise much like we didn't capitalise in either of the last 2 seasons.

They destroy each other. That's the key. They are all expectant of CL football - all six. So when a couple fall off the pace and have a lot of points taken off them in the games they play against each other they tend to plummet a bit to 7th/8th. Its just natural. Their primary target is really their ONLY target: CL football. If they sense it's not on then they dont want to fall into the EL spots if they can help it. That's not a consolation prize, it's an albatross.

 

[ianefc]

They destroy each other. That's the key. They are all expectant of CL football - all six. So when a couple fall off the pace and have a lot of points taken off them in the games they play against each other they tend to plummet a bit to 7th/8th. Its just natural. Their primary target is really their ONLY target: CL football. If they sense it's not on then they dont want to fall into the EL spots if they can help it. That's not a consolation prize, it's an albatross.

No argument from me on that one, statistically you're bang on the money, my only point is that if the top 6 does consist of Spurs, Arsenal, RS, Chelsea, UTD and City then should we finish 7th, then that's not a fail, I'm sure you told me the same under Martinez about my expectations. I'll find it if needs be, you know, for consistency.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Honestly, I reckon we are in for a period of manager merry go round.

I don't think Koeman will be here long at all.

Because he fails or because he does well and gets poached?

 

[davek]

No argument from me on that one, statistically you're bang on the money, my only point is that if the top 6 does consist of Spurs, Arsenal, RS, Chelsea, UTD and City then should we finish 7th, then that's not a fail, I'm sure you told me the same under Martinez about my expectations. I'll find it if needs be, you know, for consistency.

The man has said himself that's his target. If you dont reach a target it's a failure, surely?

As for Martinez: I'd have said that we have no divine right to get a EL place but it should be our target (even if it does lay the seeds of failure for the next season...such is Everton's predicament...continuing predicament too, despite all the talk of a billionaire game changer).

 

[Saint Domingo]

Actually, if you look at the net spending of Moyes period in charge between 2002-2008/9 then Everton were decent net spenders, and though we weren't in the big spenders category of the financial elite by any means we were something like 9th or 10th best overall in terms of fees paid and wage bill. In that period he had us punching financially above our weight to the tune of 1 or two places (average 8th place finish). Of course, the roof fell in after 2009 when Uncle Bill had a couple of firesales for a few seasons to keep the banks at bay and net spend went right down...though picked up before he left.

It was a commendable effort in that 2002-2009 period considering what had gone on before, but it wasn't miraculous and it doesn't deserve the hoopla you give it above.

Highest premier league position in Everton's history. Only team (until Leicester) outside of the monied 6 to crack the top 4. First Everton manager to finish above Liverpool since 1987 (went on to do that three times in total - a feat no other Everton prem manager has managed once). Only Everton manager since 1995 to get to a cup final. All done against a backdrop of ridiculous financial impediment, best players sold to competitors, and teams above trading on guaranteed CL football.

If this is only commendable then I dread to think how you would view other prem Everton managers who couldn't even get us into the top half of the table on a regular basis.....

 

[ianefc]

The man has said himself that's his target. If you dont reach a target it's a failure, surely?

As for Martinez: I'd have said that we have no divine right to get a EL place but it should be our target (even if it does lay the seeds of failure for the next season...such is Everton's predicament...continuing predicament too, despite all the talk of a billionaire game changer).

That's only fair if we held all managers to all things they say/said and if we are going to do it then we have to do it for Martinez, Moyes and so on.

 

[davek]

Highest premier league position in Everton's history. Only team (until Leicester) outside of the monied 6 to crack the top 4. First Everton manager to finish above Liverpool since 1987 (went on to do that three times in total - a feat no other Everton prem manager has managed once). Only Everton manager since 1995 to get to a cup final. All done against a backdrop of ridiculous financial impediment, best players sold to competitors, and teams above trading on guaranteed CL football.

If this is only commendable then I dread to think how you would view other prem Everton managers who couldn't even get us into the top half of the table on a regular basis.....

...you missed out joint worst PL finish and lowest league points total since the 1980/81 season. Throughout the whole period we played a brutally negative and ultra cautious form of football.

I think the word commendable is very reasonable. You seem to wish to paint that period as a golden era. It wasn't.

 

[Saint Domingo]

...you missed out joint worst PL finish and lowest league points total since the 1980/81 season. Throughout the whole period we played a brutally negative and ultra cautious form of football.

I think the word commendable is very reasonable. You seem to wish to paint that period as a golden era. It wasn't.

I used to think these things were poor but then another manager came in and recorded the worst home record in Everton's entire history and one of the worst in Europe at the time.

Back on Koeman, European football should be the barometer of success for any Everton manager. If they don't achieve it (and by that very implication haven't won a trophy) then that season cannot be deemed a success.