Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[bluewally]

Can't really see what is going to happen to change the predictable style of play, tactics and outcomes - particularly at home. Some on GOT seem to have a sort of blind faith that RM is somehow going to do something magical to change things around but without any evidence. Suggesting we have the best squad since god knows when isn't enough because they clearly aren't in terms of consistent performance. Two title challenging teams have just gone to City and come away with three points. We couldn't hold on to a 3 -1 advantage. The stats speak for themselves and four home wins is just not good enough. I can't see what RM is going to do between now and the end of the season to bring about such a drastic change in results. So if we come a cropper at Bournemouth then the season is finished with 12 games to go. Whichever way you look at it it's not good enough. If we beat Bournemouth then we are papering over the cracks and getting distracted by a cup run which will probably end in tears anyway.

All of this. There's some kind of belief that, despite evidence to the contrary over the last season and a half, bobby will suddenly realise his system isnt perfect and adapt it

 

[Tree13]

No, I got you the first time. And I recognise a sidestep on the CL places stuff, so well in on that at least.

It's blindingly obvious you didn't get it the first time - you are under the mistaken impression we agree, and I am here telling you that we most certainly do not. As for sidestepping: that would be what you are currently doing sir. Not me.

To reiterate:

You said we are playing our best football since the 80s. I pointed out that whilst this is technically accurate, it is not actually saying a lot when you consider just how woeful we were all the way through the 90s and well into the 00s.

You said we're a top-8 club. I pointed out that we cannot regard ourselves as a top-8 club unless we regularly finish inside the top 8. We didn't manage it last year and on current evidence we won't do it this year either. And in the context of seasons with Man Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool all struggling, this isn't good enough.

You said Martinez is doing fine. I pointed out that he isn't, and three victories against Carlisle, Newcastle and Stoke don't alter the fact that the general trend in our league finishes under Martinez is currently dropping.

That's not agreeing. And that's not me sidestepping. You are WUMMING at a ferocious rate in this thread and you erode your own credibility with every post.

 

[Tree13]

He could have played two wingers instead of holding midfielders and stretched the game.

He could have instructed the side to play quicker, looking to hit give and go passes off the target man pinned to their centre-halves all game.

Given the lack of threat going the other way, in the last 15 he could have even gone with two wingers and two strikers and took off a full back or centre half.

There were countless things he could have done; he did nothing. All he did was make like for like changes and keep doing the same thing over and over again.

It wasn't "one of those games" - WBA set out to defend, invited us to break them down, and our manager didn't manage the game (yet again) and WBA saw out the result. We did nothing whatsoever to attempt to change the outcome in game.

+100 rep for this post, particularly the final paragraph.

 

[Tree13]

Fans are fickle. Here's why: if we'd have got the three points on Saturday then we'd have been four points off top five and no one but no one would be asking questions about this manager right now. Just 90 minutes of football and one result.

No one here could dispute that. So that's why I dont take any kneejerking seriously after a loss like this. It's like short term memory syndrome: forgotten are the three preceding games and all is doom and gloom. How you live like that I have no idea. It must be horrible.

Consistency, long term analysis of where we are and where where going as a club - that's the only way to analyse this team and manager. If you do that then you come to a different conclusion than this

Obvious WUM is obvious.

Accuses critics of knee-jerking and forgetting the previous three results, whilst himself ignoring the previous 18 months of regular poor results and criticism of the manager.

Dave, I don't know what sort of gratification you're getting from deliberately posting nonsensical statements but it's getting tiresome.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Fans are fickle. Here's why: if we'd have got the three points on Saturday then we'd have been four points off top five and no one but no one would be asking questions about this manager right now.

But we didn't - in case you didn't notice, and we fell back to 11th. Once again we lost at home.

...To cack

Can't blame the fans for this one. Nor can you reproach them for seeing that there's zero consistency. You know as well as I do if those two pennos weren't given against newcastle there'd have been a bit more grumbling on the martinez thread than there actually was that week.

People are wary of posting their observations when we do win for fear of the usual suspects pouncing on what they've said & making the poster out to be a moanin' arse - even if they point out some minor criticism.

So that's why I dont take any kneejerking seriously after a loss like this.

ANY loss with you. Don't start taking the high ground because we played well enough to win but didn't. There's a reason behind it; namely 30 shots with 0 goals. You said there was nowt wrong with it. Others rightly disagree. To you, they're ALL 'knee-jerkers' - despite the rest of the season's results.

It's like short term memory syndrome: forgotten are the three preceding games and all is doom and gloom.

Oh well - let's all do a 'kin conga because we won the previous three games, shall we? One against a side that's battling relegation again (And one where - on a normal day - we'd have only scored the one instead of three) a 3rd division side (Whoo-hoo) and a side we should be beating regularly anyway but have lost the last two home games under this manager...

Have you forgotten why we are 11th? No? Then don't sneer at your perception of other people's memories (Short or long-term) Because that's all it is - your perception - you have nothing to back it up without making yourself look hypocritical again.

How you live like that I have no idea. It must be horrible.

You've already demonstrated you have no idea outside of your own mindset quite sufficiently several times throughout this thread. I've already pointed that out to you on several occasions. Shame it has to be explained to you time after time.

Consistency,

Of which we've shown NONE for the last two seasons

long term analysis of where we are and where where going as a club

Hang on...Didn't you make out that we all had a problem with our memories??? Nevermind - where are we, again? 11th.

Where were we last season - 11th? Need I carry on? Oh, ok then just for you - we were 5th the season before weren't we? Kind of scuppers your consistency argument, doesn't it? You know? 5th, 11th, 11th (currently) Let's not forget your 7th place trophy rantings when we were once upon a time in the semi-final of the chamberpot - although that's irrelevant now innit?

Or it would be if we were still in the LC. It'll only be relevant in your consistency argument on condition we achieve anywhere above last season's 11th place

So what does that tell you about our consistency and where we're going? Hm? Not looking good, is it?

that's the only way to analyse this team and manager.

Is it? Consistency and where we're going, you say? - I'll hold you to that then. You do realise the word consistency in this case means people can validly incorporate past results? You can't use consistency for the future - unless you know something we don't (And Leicester are still top, so I very much doubt that one, davekorah )

If you do that then you come to a different conclusion than this

Why persist in lumping everyone into that category? Because your sneering attitude is one of: "What are you cribbin' about - you've never had it so good?!".

People have every right to question this manager and his methods if he's consistently failing to produce results. Not all of us are panicking; but if you want to make out they are, for some sort of hysterical hyperbole effect, you crack on. Makes you come across a lot (not a bit) of a two-hat imo.

*Expects the usual davek M.O. of TL;DR or other abbreviated 'disinterested' retort.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

But we didn't - in case you didn't notice, and we fell back to 11th. Once again we lost at home.

...To cack

Can't blame the fans for this one. Nor can you reproach them for seeing that there's zero consistency. You know as well as I do if those two pennos weren't given against newcastle there'd have been a bit more grumbling on the martinez thread than there actually was that week.

People are wary of posting their observations when we do win for fear of the usual suspects pouncing on what they've said & making the poster out to be a moanin' arse - even if they point out some minor criticism.



ANY loss with you. Don't start taking the high ground because we played well enough to win but didn't. There's a reason behind it; namely 30 shots with 0 goals. You said there was nowt wrong with it. Others rightly disagree. To you, they're ALL 'knee-jerkers' - despite the rest of the season's results.



Oh well - let's all do a 'kin conga because we won the previous three games, shall we? One against a side that's battling relegation again (And one where - on a normal day - we'd have only scored the one instead of three) a 3rd division side (Whoo-hoo) and a side we should be beating regularly anyway but have lost the last two home games under this manager...

Have you forgotten why we are 11th? No? Then don't sneer at your perception of other people's memories (Short or long-term) Because that's all it is - your perception - you have nothing to back it up without making yourself look hypocritical again.



You've already demonstrated you have no idea outside of your own mindset quite sufficiently several times throughout this thread. I've already pointed that out to you on several occasions. Shame it has to be explained to you time after time.



Of which we've shown NONE for the last two seasons



Hang on...Didn't you make out that we all had a problem with our memories??? Nevermind - where are we, again? 11th.

Where were we last season - 11th? Need I carry on? Oh, ok then just for you - we were 5th the season before weren't we? Kind of scuppers your consistency argument, doesn't it? You know? 5th, 11th, 11th (currently) Let's not forget your 7th place trophy rantings when we were once upon a time in the semi-final of the chamberpot - although that's irrelevant now innit?

Or it would be if we were still in the LC. It'll only be relevant in your consistency argument on condition we achieve anywhere above last season's 11th place

So what does that tell you about our consistency and where we're going? Hm? Not looking good, is it?



Is it? Consistency and where we're going, you say? - I'll hold you to that then. You do realise the word consistency in this case means people can validly incorporate past results? You can't use consistency for the future - unless you know something we don't (And Leicester are still top, so I very much doubt that one, davekorah )



Why persist in lumping everyone into that category? Because your sneering attitude is one of: "What are you cribbin' about - you've never had it so good?!".

People have every right to question this manager and his methods if he's consistently failing to produce results. Not all of us are panicking; but if you want to make out they are, for some sort of hysterical hyperbole effect, you crack on. Makes you come across a lot (not a bit) of a two-hat imo.

*Expects the usual davek M.O. of TL;DR or other abbreviated 'disinterested' retort.

Reading all that was worth it just for the flaming panicking stick man running around like James McCarthy lol

 

[willo30]

Nope what I am saying is the pretty football is the start and will be a catalyst of better things. The WBA way or dare I say the David Moyes way isn't/wasn't the way to progress and move a whole club forward. RM's style has a way that if he finds the correct balance we can challenge the top 4. We couldn't do that if we decided to play negatively and held on to what may be a lucky lead. In most of our games this season we have no doubt been the better team so that is one box ticked and now we have to tick another box which we haven't yet done so. All I look at is 1). Is our footy good....Yes very good. 2) Can we score goals regular....Yes we can. 3) Have we a mean defence....No we haven't. Still a work in progress but we all know that if he succeeds in making our defence more solid then we will have a great team. He has already succeeded in the harder job of scoring goals on a regular basis. I just don't want to go back to the nicking wins by defending resolute every game but know that it is not a fomula for challenging the top 4 in other words doing a WBA but on a slightly better level. Sod that.

I'm not sure it's fair to compare Moyes to WBA. I recall us playing some great stuff at times under him. Not enough granted but at the end of the day he was a defensive minded manager which is why we were so good at it and not so at attacking. Martinez on the other hand is the opposite, he comes from an attacking background which he is proving with our attacking style but he is useless at the defensive side.

Almost 20 years for Moyes and 10 for Martinez and neither have got it in them to work out both attacking and defending. The proof is there plain to see. You don't win anything being strong in just one department.

We need someone who is strong in both departments to move us forward now. We are going nowhere as it stands.

 

[Moomin]

I'm not sure it's fair to compare Moyes to WBA. I recall us playing some great stuff at times under him. Not enough granted but at the end of the day he was a defensive minded manager which is why we were so good at it and not so at attacking. Martinez on the other hand is the opposite, he comes from an attacking background which he is proving with our attacking style but he is useless at the defensive side.

Almost 20 years for Moyes and 10 for Martinez and neither have got it in them to work out both attacking and defending. The proof is there plain to see. You don't win anything being strong in just one department.

We need someone who is strong in both departments to move us forward now. We are going nowhere as it stands.

Are you thinking Big Sam??

 

[willo30]

Are you thinking Big Sam??

WOW! Where did that come from?

For the record Big Sam is useless at both.

 

[Moomin]

WOW! Where did that come from?

The man is a genius, he would have us in the Champions league within two seasons.

 

[gonetomorrow]

Martinez is great. He just needs some help on the substituting front.

Imagine Kone and Osman instead of Pienaar and Mirallas who must be desperate to get on!

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Reading all that was worth it just for the flaming panicking stick man running around like James McCarthy lol

Ta! Charmed, I'm sure

 

[willo30]

The man is a genius, he would have us in the Champions league within two seasons.

Genius and Champions League in the same sentence when talking about Big Sam?

I need to go for a lie down.

 

[davek]

He could have played two wingers instead of holding midfielders and stretched the game.

He could have instructed the side to play quicker, looking to hit give and go passes off the target man pinned to their centre-halves all game.

Given the lack of threat going the other way, in the last 15 he could have even gone with two wingers and two strikers and took off a full back or centre half.

There were countless things he could have done; he did nothing. All he did was make like for like changes and keep doing the same thing over and over again.

It wasn't "one of those games" - WBA set out to defend, invited us to break them down, and our manager didn't manage the game (yet again) and WBA saw out the result. We did nothing whatsoever to attempt to change the outcome in game.

Lolling at you trying to do the job of a decorated manager.

He could have done all those things you suggest, but the fact remains our players had the ball at their feet and had a dig at goal 34 times (only Arsenal have ever bettered that shot per game total in the PL's history) and still didn't score. Manager's fault for their lack of precision/lack of fortune on the day was it? Utter nonsense criticising that game from a managerial context. The feller did his job and the players did to an extent, they just could't get the ball over the line.

Is it that difficult a concept for you to get your head around and accept? This ^^^ is when you know it's personal and not analysis driven critique - when you scold a manager for a defeat under those circumstances.

I would say it matters quite a bit, Dave.

Myself and almost 40,000 other people pay good dough to go to these home games and, given the choice, I for one would prefer we were winning more matches at home than away as it would send me home a heck of a lot happier than I left the ground on Saturday.

If Bobby wants to keep the critical mass of supporters onside then those supporters are going to want to be seeing more winning performances in front of their own eyes.

Winning a mere four home games at this stage of the season is not a recipe for keeping the natives from being restless.

Well you should know what's happened then mate: you get to a point from midway last season where the home crowd became a drag on their own team's best efforts.

They are short of confidence in front of their own support and feel more liberated to play a better game away from home. That is a damning fact, and it's not the players or manager who are the damned ones either. Want home wins all the time?: dont scream at them that they're hopeless muck. Easy really.

LOL ....no of course I would not like to see Huth in an Everton shirt. Again, an attempt to derail the debate with a wild "Mike Parry like" statement to get away from what we are talking about.

The point i was making was that any decent manager worth his salt can organise a defence to be tight and doesn't need world beaters in there to do so, which is a point you made in your previous post.

As for the comments that follow, your clear lack of understanding in the basics of the game is very evident at times. Almost like the ultimate arm chair fan with the strongest opinions. Ale house team, top of the league lol I think it is silly of you to even try to suggest you know what would work in our set up, you haven't got the first iota of understanding the game from these comments.

Leicester are now approaching a full season of very outstanding form, from the end of February onwards to now. whereas, we are in massive decline! that is a fact my dear friend and one you would do well to take notice of, save you coming across a bit daft sometimes.

Massive decline bollocks. We are in terms of points and position where we usually are at this point in the season for the majority of seasons in the last decade and a half. Check your facts.

The more money we give him to spend, the more he dilutes the great squad left behind by Moyes.

The facts are clear, he fed off the training and tactics of David Moyes for 12months, now we are left with the Real Deal and its painful, on course for 2 bottom half finishes on the run, we cant blame the board this time, they backed the manager, fully. We cant blame the refs this time, we cant blame chelsea, nor can we blame the devil himself.

On course for two bottom half finishes when one weeks set of results can launch you back into the top half again.

Diluting the squad. Ha Ha Ha. Funniest thing I've read here for ages. He's made this squad for the first time since the purple years of the 80s into a proper first team squad with quality in depth. He must have added about £100M onto the value of the squad since hes been here. No wonder the board are happy with him.

It's blindingly obvious you didn't get it the first time - you are under the mistaken impression we agree, and I am here telling you that we most certainly do not. As for sidestepping: that would be what you are currently doing sir. Not me. To reiterate:
You said we are playing our best football since the 80s. I pointed out that whilst this is technically accurate, it is not actually saying a lot when you consider just how woeful we were all the way through the 90s and well into the 00s.

So you dont agree that we are playing the best football since the 80s...but you do agree it's been much better than the 90s and noughties? Right, that's cleared that one up.

You said we're a top-8 club. I pointed out that we cannot regard ourselves as a top-8 club unless we regularly finish inside the top 8. We didn't manage it last year and on current evidence we won't do it this year either. And in the context of seasons with Man Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool all struggling, this isn't good enough.

Conveniently forgetting that we finished top 5 also.

Obvious WUM is obvious.

Accuses critics of knee-jerking and forgetting the previous three results, whilst himself ignoring the previous 18 months of regular poor results and criticism of the manager.

Dave, I don't know what sort of gratification you're getting from deliberately posting nonsensical statements but it's getting tiresome.

'Nonsensical statements': what, dealing with the illogical fume from the usual lost souls with some actual facts?

The word you're search for isn't 'wumming', it's 'inconvenient'.

Your frustration at failing to be handed a clear run at blackguarding this manager and presenting him falsely as someone who's failed and under threat gets the better of you. All of the time. Sorry, but that's your problem not mine. You need to avoid personal insults and focus more on your analysis of where we actually stand as a club led by Roberto. I honestly dont think you can do that though, such is the extreme subjective position you've taken up. You're not alone there like. Unfortunately.

 

[Chang Elephant]

I've liked your post Dave, no idea why though