Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Sentinel]

Let's say Lukaku agrees to stay for arguments sake, what signings considering our mangers track record, would push us onto competing for a top four position. Most would agree that our defense has been the weakest link all season. Even though we have players who are regular internationals. Wasn't last season the same conundrum, yet still the obvious gaps were not replaced. A new goalkeeper, someone to replace our departing centre backs. My concern is that, given another pre-season Martinez still wouldn't rectify these problems, so I can't see how giving another summer to him, will change that. My gut feeling is come next October we'll be in exactly the same position as we were the year before. Wouldn't it be more prudent to hire someone who knows that winning teams build from the back? Then let that person spend the money.

 

[Prevenger17]

See, they are entitled to their opinion fella.

I don't have a problem with different opinions - the problem is the unfriendly nature they're sometimes put across with (from both anti and pro).

I don't think the nature of the debate is necessarily toxic, there's a lot of people just hamming it up.

On another note, I always get the sweats when a Groucho quote pops up in my alert feed, I instantly start wondering what I have been threadbanned for

 

[smileychap]

Let's say Lukaku agrees to stay for arguments sake, what signings considering our mangers track record, would push us onto competing for a top four position. Most would agree that our defense has been the weakest link all season. Even though we have players who are regular internationals. Wasn't last season the same conundrum, yet still the obvious gaps were not replaced. A new goalkeeper, someone to replace our departing centre backs. My concern is that, given another pre-season Martinez still wouldn't rectify these problems, so I can't see how giving another summer to him, will change that. My gut feeling is come next October we'll be in exactly the same position as we were the year before. Wouldn't it be more prudent to hire someone who knows that winning teams build from the back? Then let that person spend the money.

Spot on.

End of season run then go after a solid Manager. I'd like a Brit.maybe Alex McLeish when he's out of Egypt or wherever (I'm joking). I'd have Moyes back in a heart beat but if going back isn't seen as the future then I'd love to see us promote from within. I'd also consider the Neville brothers,
( scarily ) if they showed any potential at championship level first.

Personally, I wouldn't give Martinez til the end of season, results speak for themselves. He's a gambler and throwing away more than he's gained so far... I do appreciate the greater swell of opnion to at least keep him until the end of the season though, so if Everton can nick or at least make an FA cup final then his 3 year stint won't have been all bad. Obviously if he wins thr FA Cup he would probably be in with a shout to stay, which would be hard to say he doesn't deserve. Like all non Martinez fans, that would be a nice problem to have!

In fairness to him, McCarthy, Lukaku, Del and besic/Fumes Mori/Lennon maybe cleverly represent OK business, that makes up for Kone and Alcaraz (average/poor). The lack of densive cover is awful. But he hasn't bankrupted us, and we have been good to watch at times, until his defensive inabilities took hold. I think he's put himself in an awkward position of cup or bust which (like his whole tenure, poor subs and strained touchline behaviour) for me just sits uncomfortably. OUT.

 

[BlueToff]

@Little Ralphy from your request for a link in the old thread mate.

I can't find anything about 20% figure but I remember distinctly (I think it was on 5live) the pundits saying when RM was appointed here about how he had sustained 20% budget cuts over the last two or three seasons (something along those lines).

http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/wigan-athletics-unlikely-survival.html

The above (from 2011) states that:
Given their substantial financial disadvantages, Wigan’s ability to survive in the Premier League is a minor modern miracle. They have the lowest revenue in the top tier, just about the smallest crowds, the highest reliance on television money, one of the highest wages to turnover ratios and no cash. As a recent set of accounts drily stated, “The challenges on the pitch are very much reflected by the challenges off it.”

Now, I'm not making an excuse for RM but there were other factors that should be noted when talking about a club like Wigan.

When Wigan first came up 11 years ago now, the TV money wasn't there like it was in 2011 even - never mind 2013 (and definitely not now!). They were coming up as a tiny club but at the same time the league was less competitive and from 2004-2008 there was certainly a feeling that the Prem was split into four 'mini leagues', almost - with significant differences in quality between the teams in each of those 'mini-leagues'. The City money was the thing that started to change that and then, thusly, the TV money coming in over the next few years as well.

 

[Little Ralphy]

@Little Ralphy from your request for a link in the old thread mate.

I can't find anything about 20% figure but I remember distinctly (I think it was on 5live) the pundits saying when RM was appointed here about how he had sustained 20% budget cuts over the last two or three seasons (something along those lines).

http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/wigan-athletics-unlikely-survival.html

The above (from 2011) states that:
Given their substantial financial disadvantages, Wigan’s ability to survive in the Premier League is a minor modern miracle. They have the lowest revenue in the top tier, just about the smallest crowds, the highest reliance on television money, one of the highest wages to turnover ratios and no cash. As a recent set of accounts drily stated, “The challenges on the pitch are very much reflected by the challenges off it.”

Now, I'm not making an excuse for RM but there were other factors that should be noted when talking about a club like Wigan.

When Wigan first came up 11 years ago now, the TV money wasn't there like it was in 2011 even - never mind 2013 (and definitely not now!). They were coming up as a tiny club but at the same time the league was less competitive and from 2004-2008 there was certainly a feeling that the Prem was split into four 'mini leagues', almost - with significant differences in quality between the teams in each of those 'mini-leagues'. The City money was the thing that started to change that and then, thusly, the TV money coming in over the next few years as well.

Cheers mate. I've heard it a lot myself about the reduction in funds etc. but when I looked at their accounts and the Guardian football finance figures, it shows the wages actually went up while he was there, not down at all. Which is why I figured I must be missing something. I wonder if it was perhaps Whelan spinning a tale to enhance the reputation of RM, or to capture people's imagination.

I've no doubt it was a tough job to keep them up, being the small club like that it was always going to be. But having said that Swansea managed it and won the League Cup under Laudrup. Prior to RM, Wigan had been 8th or something. I remember him at Wigan, having Caldwell trying to play out from the back and them taking some hidings due to the nature of them being so open, but also picking up some unexpected results.

I agree with you that all managers need a stubborn streak, but if you want to be successful at anything you need to learn from your mistakes.

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

El Coco needs to go for the good of the human race.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

Bin him, sooner rather than...

Yes the 'standard' of play improved, along with the 'standard' of player. He's a gross underachiever who's touched lucky on the back of a spunky cup win and an inherited, well-drilled defence (since drained of confidence and nouse by the vigour-sucking pound-shop GUARDIOLA incubus). Aside from that he's generally a bottom half manager, and with this squad that's unforgivable. You can't cite the '72 point' season as example then discount everything before and after either as some have. It's about the bigger picture and the constant repeat of pattern without learning...

EVER.

Plus he's talking about 'kickstarting' the season....in MARCH. Which is a bit insulting really.

And he deemed TITUS BRAMBLE England standard. Ya get me?

That said, we get behind us HUGELY for Saturday I reckon. Not confident but they're do-able if there's no madness.

#DoItForTheMOSH

 

[Groucho]

I don't think the nature of the debate is necessarily toxic, there's a lot of people just hamming it up.

On another note, I always get the sweats when a Groucho quote pops up in my alert feed, I instantly start wondering what I have been threadbanned for

Perhaps if you stopped doing threadban worthy posts that'd take your anxiety away? Never a good idea to start discussing stuff like this in-thread. It's an Everton forum thread, not an 'I'm hard done by' thread, which is off topic in the very place we want you to stay on topic.

I'm drawing a line under this now. Here a line. See?
_________________________________

Back to Martinez please folks.

 

[smileychap]

Spot on.

End of season run then go after a solid Manager. I'd like a Brit.maybe Alex McLeish when he's out of Egypt or wherever (I'm joking). I'd have Moyes back in a heart beat but if going back isn't seen as the future then I'd love to see us promote from within. I'd also consider the Neville brothers,
( scarily ) if they showed any potential at championship level first.

Personally, I wouldn't give Martinez til the end of season, results speak for themselves. He's a gambler and throwing away more than he's gained so far... I do appreciate the greater swell of opnion to at least keep him until the end of the season though, so if Everton can nick or at least make an FA cup final then his 3 year stint won't have been all bad. Obviously if he wins thr FA Cup he would probably be in with a shout to stay, which would be hard to say he doesn't deserve. Like all non Martinez fans, that would be a nice problem to have!

In fairness to him, McCarthy, Lukaku, Del and besic/Fumes Mori/Lennon maybe cleverly represent OK business, that makes up for Kone and Alcaraz (average/poor). The lack of densive cover is awful. But he hasn't bankrupted us, and we have been good to watch at times, until his defensive inabilities took hold. I think he's put himself in an awkward position of cup or bust which (like his whole tenure, poor subs and strained touchline behaviour) for me just sits uncomfortably. OUT.

@Little Ralphy from your request for a link in the old thread mate.

I can't find anything about 20% figure but I remember distinctly (I think it was on 5live) the pundits saying when RM was appointed here about how he had sustained 20% budget cuts over the last two or three seasons (something along those lines).

http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/wigan-athletics-unlikely-survival.html

The above (from 2011) states that:
Given their substantial financial disadvantages, Wigan’s ability to survive in the Premier League is a minor modern miracle. They have the lowest revenue in the top tier, just about the smallest crowds, the highest reliance on television money, one of the highest wages to turnover ratios and no cash. As a recent set of accounts drily stated, “The challenges on the pitch are very much reflected by the challenges off it.”

Now, I'm not making an excuse for RM but there were other factors that should be noted when talking about a club like Wigan.

When Wigan first came up 11 years ago now, the TV money wasn't there like it was in 2011 even - never mind 2013 (and definitely not now!). They were coming up as a tiny club but at the same time the league was less competitive and from 2004-2008 there was certainly a feeling that the Prem was split into four 'mini leagues', almost - with significant differences in quality between the teams in each of those 'mini-leagues'. The City money was the thing that started to change that and then, thusly, the TV money coming in over the next few years as well.

Good quote.

Yes, Fair to keep in mind Martinez past achievements. He sort of played win or bust at Wigan and it did work, but then he could do that cos there was no huge expectation to do better. The cup (needing only 7 wins half of which are against lesser opponents) was a great achievement too.

His record isn't bad, Swansea likewise, he just not tactically astute and it shows in consistency of results. He may have also been a reasonable enough stop gap for Everton, brought in some OK players and set a benchmark for those of football werre capable of, too which in theory complimented Moyes, gritty, tight XI. Just need someone with both... 'Just'!

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

'It’s so frustrating to win the game and then throw it away to lose it...' = OK?

'We will never give up and accept defeat'.....no BOB, this is the mantra of teams that play US mate cos they know, no matter what the lead, they still have a chance against.

Pffff....

I was hoping for less bubbles in the presser TBH.

 

[BlueToff]

Good quote.

Yes, Fair to keep in mind Martinez past achievements. He sort of played win or bust at Wigan and it did work, but then he could do that cos there was no huge expectation to do better. The cup (needing only 7 wins half of which are against lesser opponents) was a great achievement too.

His record isn't bad, Swansea likewise, he just not tactically astute and it shows in consistency of results. He may have also been a reasonable enough stop gap for Everton, brought in some OK players and set a benchmark for those of football werre capable of, too which in theory complimented Moyes, gritty, tight XI. Just need someone with both... 'Just'!

I've mentioned before mate but my line of thinking is that (like at Swansea), RM's style of play and system can be a success in the long term - whatever success is relative to that club. For Wigan that was the FA Cup but augmented by going down - though it's interesting to note Rosler went in and actually changed their style and that's what saw their major decline in the Championship in his second season there...

Relative success for Swansea was getting to the Prem, establishing themselves and winning the League Cup.

What my point has been that there is some evidence to prove that RM's basic premise is great as a groundwork but ultimately (like at Swansea when Souza and Rodgers thusly took over when RM left) he may not be the man to see that system through to fruition - though I appreciate he obviously got Swansea promoted to the Champ.

 

[BlueToff]

'It’s so frustrating to win the game and then throw it away to lose it...' = OK?

'We will never give up and accept defeat'.....no BOB, this is the mantra of teams that play US mate cos they know, no matter what the lead, they still have a chance against.

Pffff....

I was hoping for less bubbles in the presser TBH.

He's waffling.

It annoys me that he can't give a straight answer. He's making himself look a fool.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

He's waffling.

It annoys me that he can't give a straight answer. He's making himself look a fool.

I had (despite my feelings about him) real hope that he'd come out today and give a really sensible, positive, kinda inspiring presser without all the flannel & jazz.

Nope.

Bit disappointed by that TBH, it just sorta says to me that 'Nah....he's just not getting this at all'.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

'It’s so frustrating to win the game and then throw it away to lose it...' = OK?

'We will never give up and accept defeat'.....no BOB, this is the mantra of teams that play US mate cos they know, no matter what the lead, they still have a chance against.

Pffff....

I was hoping for less bubbles in the presser TBH.

I can't bring myself to watch them anymore, the first year i was all "this is phenomenal", now am like if i hear that one more time my head will go through the wall.

The amount of rubbish that comes out of his mouth sometimes is terrible, sometimes i think he has like a bet or is just punking everyone and thinks how he can talk as much waffle as possible before people start calling him.

 

[hktoffee]

No mate.

In fairness mods, I remember some posters called me Mao or used some other racist phases that I cannot recall. It's just as bad.

I agree such phase shall not be used even we dislike and not agree with the Martinez regime.