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Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)
- Thread starter Fat Stan
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Whistlin' Dixie
Player Valuation: £50m
Seriously, the joke's on you if you think a certain amount of points & GD gets you a certain position. Stick to baseball hitting stats, because it appears obvious you know little about football.
This whole argument that points are better than league positions is total cack. We held the record top-flight points accumulated, we have scored the most top flight goals - but we don't have 20 league titles, do we?
brieverton
Player Valuation: £50m
The only person who would come close to universal approval is Mourinho, and even then there are some who would be unsure / uneasy at the prospect. Certainly, if we want to trend on Twitter and have Sky fawning attention on us, he is the man.
I don't envy the board in their task, there is a dearth of well-recognised,high-quality managers out there. There are the 4 candidates mentioned, but I hope/imagine the club are assessing many more names. In essence they have to make the best possible offer to their top target, and if unsuccessful, do exactly the same with their 2nd choice, and so on down that list (hopefully without having to go too far down).
It does seem that the net will be cast much wider on this occasion. Clearly, Kenwright is ultra-conservative and lacking in imagination in that regard, the appointment of Martinez was lazy and convenient, with no indication that a thorough, extensive search was done.
Would still think Unai Emery is closest to what we need. If there is another Pochettino out there, I would suggest it's Leonardo Jardim, who would undoubtedly be a risk, but then in my opinion Frank De Boer would equally be so.
Still don't think Jose is achievable for us, and of the rest, though I too have reservations, Pellegrini would come closest to what we need IMHO.
I don't envy the board in their task, there is a dearth of well-recognised,high-quality managers out there. There are the 4 candidates mentioned, but I hope/imagine the club are assessing many more names. In essence they have to make the best possible offer to their top target, and if unsuccessful, do exactly the same with their 2nd choice, and so on down that list (hopefully without having to go too far down).
It does seem that the net will be cast much wider on this occasion. Clearly, Kenwright is ultra-conservative and lacking in imagination in that regard, the appointment of Martinez was lazy and convenient, with no indication that a thorough, extensive search was done.
Would still think Unai Emery is closest to what we need. If there is another Pochettino out there, I would suggest it's Leonardo Jardim, who would undoubtedly be a risk, but then in my opinion Frank De Boer would equally be so.
Still don't think Jose is achievable for us, and of the rest, though I too have reservations, Pellegrini would come closest to what we need IMHO.
Genuinely, cannot believe this is still to be resolved!
The reason Moyes got more time is that he inherited a much weaker side with less money to spend
And, despite us bumming around lower mid table in his early days, you could see that he was putting together a solid outfit that were just lacking that odd bit of class in certain areas of the pitch
We went from being whipping boys to being a team that were difficult to beat, which eventually culminated in the great finish of 04/05. That's another point to consider as well, Moyes had an awful time in his second full season, like Martinez, but pulled it back spectactularly in his third one, which Martinez hasn't
Martinez can't defend. His defensive tactics are absolute arse. Even if he had a better calibre of player, I think we'd still leak goals
If you gave David Moyes a World Class defense (Which he didn't have at Man United btw) then he might play some dull football, but he'd at least keep it tight at the back
You could give Martinez a back 5 of Lev Yashin, Ray Wilson, Bobby Moore, Franz Beckenbauer and Cafu, all in their primes, and his side would still leak goals at a horrifying rate because he's an awful defensive coach
In the English League, you need to be defensively solid. That's why Leicester won the title this year and Chelsea won it the year before
Martinez would probably do much better on the continent (And he probably will based on his Europa League tactics), but he's shown at both clubs that he's managed in the top flight in England that he's AWFUL at organising a defence. He had one good season in 13/14 with defending, but that was an aberation
THIS is why Martinez doesn't get the same leniancy as Moyes did (And even then I think a lot of people would argue that Moyes should have really left after the Final in 2009)
Moyes at least showed that he could have top half consistency in the English top flight.
Martinez hasn't
He's had one top half finish with us, in his first season before all the other sides sussed out his tactical flaws, and a Cup win with Wigan where we handed them a Quarter Final win, they got the soft draw in Millwall for the Semi Final and they played a City team in disarray who had just sacked their manager on the day of the Final
All the positives of Martinez (The attacking play, giving youth a chance, the positive mentality, the fact he clearly "gets" Everton) are all outweighed by the Chernobyl sized negative of his positively horrendous defensive organisation
Moyes had negatives, quite a number in fact, but at least he could organise a defence and, whether you like it or not, defensive stablility is ultimately more important in this league than attacking flair. You need both to stand a good chance of winning something, but you can survive on being a strong defensive outfit with a "meh" attack. As teams like Wigan, Blackpool and Charlton have shown over the years, it's a lot harder to survive when it's the other way around
Regardless of how much money he has to spend, Roberto Martinez's lack of defensive nous will mean he will never achieve anything in the English League. He may win cups both in England and abroad, but he'll never win the Premier League or be at the helm of a team that regularly finishes in the European places because he just can't keep it tight enough at the back and he's far too stubborn to bring in a top defensive coach to help him
And, despite us bumming around lower mid table in his early days, you could see that he was putting together a solid outfit that were just lacking that odd bit of class in certain areas of the pitch
We went from being whipping boys to being a team that were difficult to beat, which eventually culminated in the great finish of 04/05. That's another point to consider as well, Moyes had an awful time in his second full season, like Martinez, but pulled it back spectactularly in his third one, which Martinez hasn't
Martinez can't defend. His defensive tactics are absolute arse. Even if he had a better calibre of player, I think we'd still leak goals
If you gave David Moyes a World Class defense (Which he didn't have at Man United btw) then he might play some dull football, but he'd at least keep it tight at the back
You could give Martinez a back 5 of Lev Yashin, Ray Wilson, Bobby Moore, Franz Beckenbauer and Cafu, all in their primes, and his side would still leak goals at a horrifying rate because he's an awful defensive coach
In the English League, you need to be defensively solid. That's why Leicester won the title this year and Chelsea won it the year before
Martinez would probably do much better on the continent (And he probably will based on his Europa League tactics), but he's shown at both clubs that he's managed in the top flight in England that he's AWFUL at organising a defence. He had one good season in 13/14 with defending, but that was an aberation
THIS is why Martinez doesn't get the same leniancy as Moyes did (And even then I think a lot of people would argue that Moyes should have really left after the Final in 2009)
Moyes at least showed that he could have top half consistency in the English top flight.
Martinez hasn't
He's had one top half finish with us, in his first season before all the other sides sussed out his tactical flaws, and a Cup win with Wigan where we handed them a Quarter Final win, they got the soft draw in Millwall for the Semi Final and they played a City team in disarray who had just sacked their manager on the day of the Final
All the positives of Martinez (The attacking play, giving youth a chance, the positive mentality, the fact he clearly "gets" Everton) are all outweighed by the Chernobyl sized negative of his positively horrendous defensive organisation
Moyes had negatives, quite a number in fact, but at least he could organise a defence and, whether you like it or not, defensive stablility is ultimately more important in this league than attacking flair. You need both to stand a good chance of winning something, but you can survive on being a strong defensive outfit with a "meh" attack. As teams like Wigan, Blackpool and Charlton have shown over the years, it's a lot harder to survive when it's the other way around
Regardless of how much money he has to spend, Roberto Martinez's lack of defensive nous will mean he will never achieve anything in the English League. He may win cups both in England and abroad, but he'll never win the Premier League or be at the helm of a team that regularly finishes in the European places because he just can't keep it tight enough at the back and he's far too stubborn to bring in a top defensive coach to help him
Kiwi
Say NO to Ginger Managers
Don't tell Danny, he'll ban them so that he can add another scalp to that of Stevie P
Whistlin' Dixie
Player Valuation: £50m
This, massively. He could have a back four of maldini, baresi, moore & cafu, and they'd still haemorrage goals.
All he would need to do would be to get a top defensive coach to counteract this as well
If he did that, I'd be willing to see him get a fourth season
As it is, he won't, so he has to go
Sad times, I would have loved it to work out for him here
bluegirl
Player Valuation: £15m
Who would be your first choice replacement - I mean if it was up to you, not based on what you know!?
Whistlin' Dixie
Player Valuation: £50m
Why? He's the manager. Don't remember Howard Kendall, Joe Royle or even Harry Catterick having the need for a defensive coach.
jungleburger
Player Valuation: £750k
Has he been sacked yet?
Foot Long Hot Dog
Player Valuation: A packet of pork scratchings
Take a bow son...
Agree with every word Mikey.
His quotes of "clean sheets aren't important to me" and "the performance is more important than the result" sums up his 2 prime fatal flaws. He's not interested in creating a side that's defensively solid and he cares more about the perceived style than the actual result.
All the great sides where built from the back, you don't concede and you've got a chance of winning. Taking a defensively rigid side and adding some flair and added quality to it, is what happened in Martinez 1st season. In the 2 years since the defensive rigidity has been lost and we've been far too easy to score against. The fact that we don't even practice defending set pieces should give anyone a clue as to why that is.
To succeed in this league you have to have the right balance of attacking flair and solidity at the back, combined with a pragmatic game management style. Martinez simply doesn't have the balance right, we've been screaming it for 18 months plus, and he's simply refused to bend, and it's that failure to acknowledge the startlingly obvious which has lead to his demise.
Proper managers don't need to hire defensive coaches to help them stop being gash.
Proper managers realise football is about with the ball and without it, and set their teams up accordingly to maximise their effectiveness in both aspects.
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