Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

Martinez in or out?

  • In

  • Out

  • Getting splinters eating cheese on toast on the fence

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Papa Shango said:
For the millionth time Moyes team did NOT defend well! Not when it ever mattered.

Also he left the squad with no useable strikers and yes it was a decent squad but it was also ageing. The players that served him so well were all getting on a bit and there were glaring holes in certain areas (some have been filled, some still have not).

Martinez had a much bigger job on his hands than some people realized at the time. Hes not done very well with it to be fair but lets not pretend it was going to be a cakewalk for him either. History is littered with managers coming into jobs where the past manager had been there for years and failed. Hell, Moyes did it himself at United!
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Are you suggesting Moyes's defensive record was not better than Martinez's?, because that's the comparison being made here, Jags and Distin under Moyes was a great partnership, once Distin questioned Martinez's methods he was frozen out.

And that ageing squad you mentioned got 72 points, so it weren't that bad was it.

Moyes left Martinez a fantastic squad, a top 6 squad, well schooled in organisation and defending, a fighting team spirit 2nd to none in the league.
 
I can't remember the score. Although I was there, I've blanked it form my mind but that Derby were we got humiliated prior to playing Sunderland in the cup sticks out as being very similar to the Martinez debacle of last month.
 

catcherintherye said:
I think that's fair, but I do remember a lot of distasteful stuff with the justification being he's not Catterick/Kendall and 6th wasn't good enough.

The key issue for me with Martinez though is would he have been appointed had Moshiri have taken over 3 years ago? He had an ok track record but in all honesty I find it hard to believe that Moyes/Smith/Martinez would have been appointed by Moshiri if he is as serious about Everton as we are led to believe. The above appointments are reflective of the narrow minded parochialism that underpinned the Kenwright approach and that you don't look beyond Lancashire for your future managers.

In many ways it is unfair that he doesn't get to spend the money. I do understand that but he'd never done enough to get appointed by a Chairman who's ambition lay much beyond Kenwrights.

At present we still await to see what Moshiri's vision is. My hope is that in the summer we punt most of what Everton has become under Kenwright. Rightly or wrongly Martinez is a part of that and the idiots suggesting we get Moyes back or Hughes (albeit not Evertonian but idiots in the media like Richard Keys) need to be shown once and for all that Everton are not just another Stoke. I think a lot of the anger now shown towards Martinez is in many ways the anger that is felt towards the old regime and what it has allowed Everton to become. Unfortunately he has become a totem for that, in a similar way to what Moyes did.

It could well be a sense of entitlement. I think though, after 15 years people have had enough, and unfortunately as part of that process people will be washed away alongside it. I don't hate Martinez and I think he has done ok, had Moshiri not come in I can't honestly say I'd be calling for him to go, I'd probably be defending him. However I just want a change and I think for a clean break to happen we need to start again and rid the club of the inertia that existed beforehand.
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This is spot on, and very well articulated. It is somewhat ironic that the anger and protests have come at a time when we should, in theory, be excited and hopeful about the new investment.

The developments with Moshiri have in general made fans less rather than more patient and Martinez is caught in what many ways in a perfect storm. The combination of the investment and greater ambition being touted, together with the general malaise in results and performances over 2 seasons became the rod on which to beat Martinez. Leicester have been marching towards and now won the title. New stadia for Spurs and West Ham. The manner in which we have lost/drawn games, and significantly, the quite frankly appalling derby performance, and semi-final exit within 72 hours just added fuel to what already had become a raging fire, and tipped many towards demanding his immediate removal.

Had Moshiri just turned out to be a phantom investor, as was the case with other individuals/groups, I imagine Martinez' position, whilst still coming under intense scrutiny and dissatisfaction from fans, would still be relatively secure under Bill Kenwright's watch. The fact that change has occurred, and greater things seem possible, has logically led the majority of the fanbase to demand that change, and visible evidence of it. Martinez will be but the first casualty in the process.
 
boris said:
I can't remember the score. Although I was there, I've blanked it form my mind but that Derby were we got humiliated prior to playing Sunderland in the cup sticks out as being very similar to the Martinez debacle of last month.
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The did us 3-0 and Me la got a hatrick.

It was bad, but not on the same level as that humiliation the other week mate, we did actually have attempts on goal in that game.
 
Whilst there is always points to learn from history, we should not get fixed by looking back all the time.

It is possibly that aspect that is generating far too many "false comparisons" and fundamentally flawing some of the points being debated on here (by those willing to debate them that is).

There are so many factors that are constantly changing in this League such as the squad, finances, competition from other clubs, scheduling of games, cup draws, injuries, the officials, even the effect of the bleeding weather that renders much of these comparisons as effective and credible as comparing apples to pears.

The primary measure of success, the reason why most of us are here, is to WIN - but not everyone can win, so at the very least we have an expectation as fans to compete, to progress, and be moving to that ultimate aim to WIN - nothing else is good enough - NSNO and all that!
I really couldn't care if Moyes had this or had that and Martinez didn't - it’s gone - it’s irrelevant now.

The current regime has failed to deliver - they appear to be taking us nowhere- there does not appear to be the confidence that they can learn, change, progress, or adapt to the current or future situation (which could include Moshiris millions), there is therefore an almost palpable RISK that the current regime will take us backwards to the point of no return or the unthinkable - so time to move on and go again.

If and when we reset to go again then that regime should be judged on the here and now and what they achieve within a reasonable timeframe and commensurate with the resources and circumstances of their tenure. Not on any arbitrary targets of those who have gone before and failed to deliver under the set of conditions and circumstances that they either had the fortune or misfortune to play with.
 

BirkenheadBlue said:
Works the other way too

Moyes had 11 years and never served up (in a derby) anything as bad as last month's performance
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He did, the year we lost to liverpool in the semi final. Ignoring that one for bbeing terrible in itself, it was the one before.

We lost 3-0, except it was terrible. Moyes had obviously rested players with a last minute decision so no-one knew what they were meant to do and it was an embarrassing performance.

My worst one until 2 weeks ago like.
 
brieverton said:
This is spot on, and very well articulated. It is somewhat ironic that the anger and protests have come at a time when we should, in theory, be excited and hopeful about the new investment.

The developments with Moshiri have in general made fans less rather than more patient and Martinez is caught in what many ways in a perfect storm. The combination of the investment and greater ambition being touted, together with the general malaise in results and performances over 2 seasons became the rod on which to beat Martinez. Leicester have been marching towards and now won the title. New stadia for Spurs and West Ham. The manner in which we have lost/drawn games, and significantly, the quite frankly appalling derby performance, and semi-final exit within 72 hours just added fuel to what already had become a raging fire, and tipped many towards demanding his immediate removal.

Had Moshiri just turned out to be a phantom investor, as was the case with other individuals/groups, I imagine Martinez' position, whilst still coming under intense scrutiny and dissatisfaction from fans, would still be relatively secure under Bill Kenwright's watch. The fact that change has occurred, and greater things seem possible, has logically led the majority of the fanbase to demand that change, and visible evidence of it. Martinez will be but the first casualty in the process.
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i do agree its an exciting time and i think this summer more than any other we are going to see big changes but we are still Everton and that lingering feeling that something bad is about to happen will stick around for a while.
 
brieverton said:
This is spot on, and very well articulated. It is somewhat ironic that the anger and protests have come at a time when we should, in theory, be excited and hopeful about the new investment.

The developments with Moshiri have in general made fans less rather than more patient and Martinez is caught in what many ways in a perfect storm. The combination of the investment and greater ambition being touted, together with the general malaise in results and performances over 2 seasons became the rod on which to beat Martinez. Leicester have been marching towards and now won the title. New stadia for Spurs and West Ham. The manner in which we have lost/drawn games, and significantly, the quite frankly appalling derby performance, and semi-final exit within 72 hours just added fuel to what already had become a raging fire, and tipped many towards demanding his immediate removal.

Had Moshiri just turned out to be a phantom investor, as was the case with other individuals/groups, I imagine Martinez' position, whilst still coming under intense scrutiny and dissatisfaction from fans, would still be relatively secure under Bill Kenwright's watch. The fact that change has occurred, and greater things seem possible, has logically led the majority of the fanbase to demand that change, and visible evidence of it. Martinez will be but the first casualty in the process.
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In short, we all want this season to end.

Think the boiling frustration comes from obvious early issues that were never addressed and just kept growing. Martinez stubbornness turning to arrogance is the defining theme of the season. Everything else falls into place from that.
 
So to summarise the last few pages -

Average of 4.5 points a month since the new year, if replicated over the next season would mean a relegation scrap.

Win rate of less than 30% this season, just over 30% last season, all of Martinez's good work was done 3 seasons ago and is reason to keep him.

WUM's / Martinez fans alike will not respond to any posts or questions asked about the humiliation at the pit, when we had 30 odd shots against us compared to our 3 and put in the most spineless performance seen by the lads in blue for years.

Leighton Baines, one of our most loyal players who turned down moves to Old Trafford and has been one of the best left backs in Europe for the last how many years is not worthy of a man like Martinez?

Michael Ball was a traitor and has no right to speak about Everton.

The next manager at Everton must deliver the holy grail of 72 points in his first season or he is a failure (or words to that effect).

Pundits who not so long ago were the subject of ridiculous abuse for questioning Martinez are now apparently "industry experts".

Nobody on here is fit to judge Martinez, with the obvious exception of what appears from the the emptiest vessel on here.

It's smashing that we are all able to air our views, also obvious we all are not going to have the same views, but sometimes it seems with views like some of the above that you need to question what the agenda is here.
 

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