Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[mkrudden]

What's more shocking is the 93% consensus - not very often you get such a definitive view on anything football related, especially at Everton.

...and let's be right, of the 4% - if there was a visible list of the users it'll defo include some RS lurkers...

I don't mind being wrong but not much about Martinez's tenure has led me or the majority of online here or Evertonians on social media to believe we can kick on with him. It's an overwhelming majority opinion.
edit: The minority aren't going to be all kopites, that's unfair- and that was what you were responding to sorry mate x

I'm not saying I am not wrong, I agree - the consensus is that Dave, I and others are bat-s crazy.
But to say we are Kopites/Wums is just childish*.

*unless popcorning.

 

[DrBungle]

Are you suggesting Moyes's defensive record was not better than Martinez's?, because that's the comparison being made here, Jags and Distin under Moyes was a great partnership, once Distin questioned Martinez's methods he was frozen out.

And that ageing squad you mentioned got 72 points, so it weren't that bad was it.

Moyes left Martinez a fantastic squad, a top 6 squad, well schooled in organisation and defending, a fighting team spirit 2nd to none in the league.

Good point about Distin. Also makes you question what really happened with Eto'o

 

[billytoffee]

So to summarise the last few pages -

Average of 4.5 points a month since the new year, if replicated over the next season would mean a relegation scrap.

Win rate of less than 30% this season, just over 30% last season, all of Martinez's good work was done 3 seasons ago and is reason to keep him.

WUM's / Martinez fans alike will not respond to any posts or questions asked about the humiliation at the pit, when we had 30 odd shots against us compared to our 3 and put in the most spineless performance seen by the lads in blue for years.

Leighton Baines, one of our most loyal players who turned down moves to Old Trafford and has been one of the best left backs in Europe for the last how many years is not worthy of a man like Martinez?

Michael Ball was a traitor and has no right to speak about Everton.

The next manager at Everton must deliver the holy grail of 72 points in his first season or he is a failure (or words to that effect).

Pundits who not so long ago were the subject of ridiculous abuse for questioning Martinez are now apparently "industry experts".

Nobody on here is fit to judge Martinez, with the obvious exception of what appears from the the emptiest vessel on here.

It's smashing that we are all able to air our views, also obvious we all are not going to have the same views, but sometimes it seems with views like some of the above that you need to question what the agenda is here.

Would you be so kind as to confirm if your summary has been vetted or endorsed by anyone deemed "fit to judge" the pages of posts that you have kindly chosen to summarise or what qualifies you Thomasc of GOT poster fame/pedigree to behave in this way that could potentialy see you labelled a kopite or geordie.

 

[Thomasc]

Good point about Distin. Also makes you question what really happened with Eto'o

Distin was a valued and well respected pro at Everton and one of our best ever bargains under Moyes too, who have years of great service and i general was solid as a rock.

He must have looked at Dennis Lawrence trying to tell him what to do and started to ask questions!

 

[DrEFC]

I'm not saying I am not wrong, I agree - the consensus is that Dave, I and others are bat-s crazy.
But to say we are Kopites/Wums is just childish*.

*unless popcorning.

C'mon, you're not crazy! Not sure on the other guy... and Dave, to be fair tries to popcorn the crap out of everyone with insults with regards to their intelligence and moral code. You at least debate and counter.

 

[Thomasc]

Would you be so kind as to confirm if your summary has been vetted or endorsed by anyone deemed "fit to judge" the pages of posts that you have kindly chosen to summarise or what qualifies you Thomasc of GOT poster fame/pedigree to behave in this way that could potentialy see you labelled a kopite or geordie.

I ran it past my secretary, she gave it the nod

 

[DrEFC]

Distin was a valued and well respected pro at Everton and one of our best ever bargains under Moyes too, who have years of great service and in general was solid as a rock.

He must have looked at Dennis Lawrence trying to tell him what to do and started to ask questions!

Distin wasn't always solid! Frig we called him Dustbin for how long. He just wasn't as good at Everton FC Lescott. Not disagreeing with the point you were making overall, as although he was prone to brain farts we still defended better as a team.

 

[squonk]

"not fit to judge"

kin ell.

nice to know we are not worthy of being Evertonians oh Master.

 

[catcherintherye]

This is spot on, and very well articulated. It is somewhat ironic that the anger and protests have come at a time when we should, in theory, be excited and hopeful about the new investment.

The developments with Moshiri have in general made fans less rather than more patient and Martinez is caught in what many ways in a perfect storm. The combination of the investment and greater ambition being touted, together with the general malaise in results and performances over 2 seasons became the rod on which to beat Martinez. Leicester have been marching towards and now won the title. New stadia for Spurs,and West Ham. The manner in which we have lost/drawn games, and significantly, the quite frankly appalling derby performance, and semi-final exit within 72 hours just added fuel to what already had become a raging fire, and tipped many towards demanding his immediate removal.

Had Moshiri just turned out to be a phantom investor, as was the case with other individuals/groups, I imagine Martinez' position, whilst still coming under intense scrutiny and dissatisfaction from fans, would still be relatively secure under Bill Kenwright's watch. The fact that change has occurred, and greater things seem possible, has logically led the majority of the fanbase to demand that change, and visible evidence of it. Martinez will be but the first casualty in the process.

Thanks mate. I think @davek key point is a fair one. It is unfair that just because a new owner come sin with loads of money we discard a manager because he doesn't reach a perceived set of objectives that come with the new investment.

My only counter point though, would be that I simply don't think he'd have been given the job in the first place had the investment come. It is unfair if he doesn't get the chance to spend 150 million, but if 150 million was available to spend when we appointed him he simply wouldn't have done enough to earn the right to manage such a club. For me it is the same argument against Moyes. He did a good job under the parameters we existed under, but that doesn't automatically mean you are best qualified to spend more money.

There is undoubtedly a ruthlessness associated with this, and it is unfair. In all honesty for the resources he's spent (9th in the league) his performance with two semi finals is ok. The same as Moyes constantly finishing in the top 8 and winning nothing was ok. under Kenwright I was resigned to having a manager who may "fluke" us a cup even if it meant messing up the league form. The problem is, that why were the expectations and pressure on the managers so low?

That is an important question to answer. I think as fans we are starting to get answers now, and while some behaviour I am uncomfortable with I can't hide away from the wider point of what is happening. Kenwright has cultivated Everton in the image of a caring, community driven, fair club that don't sack managers very often and ultimately don't compete to win trophies in any serious sense. A lot of Evertonians are very proud of that and unfortunately in any change sometimes it's not just bad bits that are replaced but sometimes some good bits go too.

However we need to remember who we are. We are the club that sacked a manager in the taxi for finishing 5th. A club that dropped Alex Young when to build a younger side to win the league. Who dropped and sold a title winning defender Mountfield to get in Watson. Who moved on Andy Gray because Lineker became available. A club that moved Dixie Dean on to get Tommy Lawton in. The club that sent their record appearance player out on loan to Stoke and didn't give him a send off in his final season.

The club Kenwright wants to turn us into has no resemblance to what went before and Evertonians have to re-learn their history. Most of the decisions above were taken by Evertonians we all love, Kendall, Moores etc. You don't win things without ruthlessness. If it was good enough for Mountfield, Grey, Kendall, Young, Dean, Southall the it surely has to be right for Martinez too?

The biggest thing any of us possess is hope. Kenwright did a good job of killing that hope and convincing us the best we could do was managers from the Lancashire boundary. That nobody was interested in us, that we are plucky little Everton. The "trying that counts" team. Davek may well say that it is entitlement but I don't think that's true. I think it says a lot for how deep the Kenwright rot has set in the minds of some fans that holding people to account, and behaving as we always had done as a club before Kenwright arrived is seen as entitlement.

This summer needs to be a big statement. I cannot believe that pundits and journalists treat Everton like Stoke or Southampton. You have radio 5 live saying Koeman will only leave Southampton to go to a "big club". You've got Mark Warbutton saying he wouldn't go to Everton. Keys suggesting Moyes had Hughes. Nobody believes anything has changed. This summer is our opportunity to show otherwise. I can't see how we can do that without ridding ourselves of the manager too.

 

[whiteshadow]

That's why industry experts are called experts mate. And that's why we just post on forums.

Chris Sutton

"Is he mad? He's not watching the same game as everyone else..."

"He talks a pile of nonsense."

"This is an Everton side who didn't create any chances."

He's not adaptable, they can't see games through.

"When Everton fans see the players at their disposal and West Brom above them in the table, that's a disaster."

"Leighton Baines coming out and being honest."

"Whatever you say about Mirallas at the weekend, he deserved to go off. What is the argument?

He blames everybody, but ultimately he has to sort his team out defensively.

Have they underachieved this year? Absolutely."

Rory Smith (journalist)

"That's the frustration, that front six is a champions league front six"

"They have had this weakness in defence for so long and it's not really getting any better"

Alan Shearer

“Take Stones first. He’s a young player who has been given the chance he may not have got at Chelsea to play regularly but it hasn’t resulted in signs of development this season. Either he is not being coached, or he is not listening, as he is making the same mistakes over and over again.”

“Barkley had a good start but there has been nothing from him in the last three months and the goals have dried up for Lukaku, who was flying mid-season,” added the former Blackburn Rovers striker. “His touch with the two chances he spurned in the first half was woeful.”

Matt Law journalist for the DT

"The majority of the Everton dressing room lost faith in Martinez some time ago and it is showing."

"Can't be a worse manager for a defender to play under."

Funny how the industry experts seem to think exactly the same things as most of the fans on here lol

You should be supporting all of us who want RM out as we're backing the stance of the industry experts, unlike Davek, who is unqualified.

 

[Ihaters]

For the millionth time Moyes team did NOT defend well! Not when it ever mattered.

We had an ace defence under Moyes. It scored goals too.

Also he left the squad with no useable strikers and yes it was a decent squad but it was also ageing. The players that served him so well were all getting on a bit and there were glaring holes in certain areas (some have been filled, some still have not).

Fortunately Moyes gave him 27m for the one he used, which allowed us to buy one of the best out there...
Oh and Barry, Kone, Alkaraz, Etoo and the likes don't make for quality young sides. In fact average age went up under Martinez.

Martinez had a much bigger job on his hands than some people realized at the time. He's not done very well with it to be fair but lets not pretend it was going to be a cakewalk for him either. History is littered with managers coming into jobs where the past manager had been there for years and failed. Hell, Moyes did it himself at United!

He had a very simple job, take a quality squad, spend money on it and improve it on the pitch.. He only managed the first two sadly.
In fact regarding the last bit, he did the opposite and took us massively backwards and no external influences excuse that. New owners, age, blooding youngsters, other teams spending money as well.... this doesn't alter how badly the quality team we field play football.

 

[Lanolin]

He did, the year we lost to liverpool in the semi final. Ignoring that one for bbeing terrible in itself, it was the one before.

We lost 3-0, except it was terrible. Moyes had obviously rested players with a last minute decision so no-one knew what they were meant to do and it was an embarrassing performance.

My worst one until 2 weeks ago like.

The 3-0 was obviously bad, but nowhere near as bad as last month. Not even in the same league.

Possession stats in the 2012 game were pretty even, we had a few shots on target (one cleared off the line if i remember correctly), and they only got their 3rd in injury time. This year i'd be surprised if we had more than 30% possession, had no shots anywhere near the target, and the game was over before the hour mark.

Basically, the fact that the 2012 shambles is only the 3rd worst derby performance in the past 4 years should be enough to see Martinez sacked on its own.

 

[MACCA75]

He did, the year we lost to liverpool in the semi final. Ignoring that one for bbeing terrible in itself, it was the one before.

We lost 3-0, except it was terrible. Moyes had obviously rested players with a last minute decision so no-one knew what they were meant to do and it was an embarrassing performance.

My worst one until 2 weeks ago like.

It was nowhere near as bad tbh. We rested players for the cup quarter final - a bold call but one I agreed with. We didn't play well but were in the game (Rodwell missed a sitter) and then last seconds of injury time Drenthe stupidly gave the ball away and they broke and scored the third.

Now compare that to both Roberto's 0-4 abominations. Both of which could have been 8 or 9.

 

[Toffeelover]

Thanks mate. I think @davek
This summer needs to be a big statement. I cannot believe that pundits and journalists treat Everton like Stoke or Southampton. You have radio 5 live saying Koeman will only leave Southampton to go to a "big club". You've got Mark Warbutton saying he wouldn't go to Everton. Keys suggesting Moyes had Hughes. Nobody believes anything has changed. This summer is our opportunity to show otherwise. I can't see how we can do that without ridding ourselves of the manager too.

Considering that in the last season we have finished in the bottom half of the table with a dismal record of performance which got worst this season, is it not surprising we may have difficulty getting a new manager of the calibre we want to be successful. First season counts for nought (that is history) as do the two cup runs ( which basically were against poor opposition).

 

[Toffeelover]

As regards that awful derby game, the most important aspect which says it all - the number of shots they had compared to us.