Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[jazzy]

I am totally reassured by @The Esk when he says that Martinez is gone and we will get a high calibre replacement.

FWIW this has been confirmed by other ITKs on other sites.

Although he should have gone weeks ago and that would have given us a chance in the Cup there is now no point in expediting the process.

Personally if we can't get Mourinho I would prefer someone younger and more dynamic than Pellegrini but I am happy to chill and enjoy the ride.

Let the good times roll.

 

[Brendan Janus]

We're not big enough for Mourinho or Pellegrini !!

 

[Ashtonian]

The 3-0 was obviously bad, but nowhere near as bad as last month. Not even in the same league.

Possession stats in the 2012 game were pretty even, we had a few shots on target (one cleared off the line if i remember correctly), and they only got their 3rd in injury time. This year i'd be surprised if we had more than 30% possession, had no shots anywhere near the target, and the game was over before the hour mark.

Basically, the fact that the 2012 shambles is only the 3rd worst derby performance in the past 4 years should be enough to see Martinez sacked on its own.

It was nowhere near as bad tbh. We rested players for the cup quarter final - a bold call but one I agreed with. We didn't play well but were in the game (Rodwell missed a sitter) and then last seconds of injury time Drenthe stupidly gave the ball away and they broke and scored the third.

Now compare that to both Roberto's 0-4 abominations. Both of which could have been 8 or 9.

Totally agree, compared to the 4-0's it doesn't seem as bad in hindsight.

I just remember that game being so unique as the team didn't have a clue what they were doing. Considering watching a moyes team was so disiplined and hardworking, that night it just looked like 11 players were told they were starting half an hour before kick off and just didn't know what they should have been doing on the pitch. If you watch it back you will see what i mean, the players were just running out of ideas fast and the only saving grace that night was the fact we were relatively solid at the back to not just capsise at any point. We certainly didn't have any offense in that game!

But yeah, the derby a week or so ago was much much worse in terms of performance, a low point for us fans

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

He did, the year we lost to liverpool in the semi final. Ignoring that one for bbeing terrible in itself, it was the one before.

We lost 3-0, except it was terrible. Moyes had obviously rested players with a last minute decision so no-one knew what they were meant to do and it was an embarrassing performance.

My worst one until 2 weeks ago like.

Personally didn't think that one was even on the same scale as last month's.

Yes, the organisation in that match was dreadful, but at least there was EFFORT. I've never known an Everton manager not even be able to get his players to TRY in a derby game, no matter how disorganised (or in certain years, downright untalented) they might have been.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Thanks mate. I think @davek key point is a fair one. It is unfair that just because a new owner come sin with loads of money we discard a manager because he doesn't reach a perceived set of objectives that come with the new investment.

My only counter point though, would be that I simply don't think he'd have been given the job in the first place had the investment come. It is unfair if he doesn't get the chance to spend 150 million, but if 150 million was available to spend when we appointed him he simply wouldn't have done enough to earn the right to manage such a club. For me it is the same argument against Moyes. He did a good job under the parameters we existed under, but that doesn't automatically mean you are best qualified to spend more money.

There is undoubtedly a ruthlessness associated with this, and it is unfair. In all honesty for the resources he's spent (9th in the league) his performance with two semi finals is ok. The same as Moyes constantly finishing in the top 8 and winning nothing was ok. under Kenwright I was resigned to having a manager who may "fluke" us a cup even if it meant messing up the league form. The problem is, that why were the expectations and pressure on the managers so low?

That is an important question to answer. I think as fans we are starting to get answers now, and while some behaviour I am uncomfortable with I can't hide away from the wider point of what is happening. Kenwright has cultivated Everton in the image of a caring, community driven, fair club that don't sack managers very often and ultimately don't compete to win trophies in any serious sense. A lot of Evertonians are very proud of that and unfortunately in any change sometimes it's not just bad bits that are replaced but sometimes some good bits go too.

However we need to remember who we are. We are the club that sacked a manager in the taxi for finishing 5th. A club that dropped Alex Young when to build a younger side to win the league. Who dropped and sold a title winning defender Mountfield to get in Watson. Who moved on Andy Gray because Lineker became available. A club that moved Dixie Dean on to get Tommy Lawton in. The club that sent their record appearance player out on loan to Stoke and didn't give him a send off in his final season.

The club Kenwright wants to turn us into has no resemblance to what went before and Evertonians have to re-learn their history. Most of the decisions above were taken by Evertonians we all love, Kendall, Moores etc. You don't win things without ruthlessness. If it was good enough for Mountfield, Grey, Kendall, Young, Dean, Southall the it surely has to be right for Martinez too?

The biggest thing any of us possess is hope. Kenwright did a good job of killing that hope and convincing us the best we could do was managers from the Lancashire boundary. That nobody was interested in us, that we are plucky little Everton. The "trying that counts" team. Davek may well say that it is entitlement but I don't think that's true. I think it says a lot for how deep the Kenwright rot has set in the minds of some fans that holding people to account, and behaving as we always had done as a club before Kenwright arrived is seen as entitlement.

This summer needs to be a big statement. I cannot believe that pundits and journalists treat Everton like Stoke or Southampton. You have radio 5 live saying Koeman will only leave Southampton to go to a "big club". You've got Mark Warbutton saying he wouldn't go to Everton. Keys suggesting Moyes had Hughes. Nobody believes anything has changed. This summer is our opportunity to show otherwise. I can't see how we can do that without ridding ourselves of the manager too.

Only that simply hasn't happened.

He's being judged on what he's delivered with the current level of investment.

The bar is now being raised in terms of our expectations of the 'level' of the next manager, but that's got nothing to do with how the current incumbent has been judged by Evertonians.

I'd have wanted his head on a spike even if Kenwright was still in full control, whether that would have happened is a moot point, but the protests and generally feeling towards his tenure would have been completely the same imo.

 

[Saint Domingo]

As regards that awful derby game, the most important aspect which says it all - the number of shots they had compared to us.

I thought I'd seen the worst Derby of all time. It wasn't even the 4-0 in 13/14, for me the 0-0 at Goodison in 14/15 was criminal as from the very first kick of the game against one of the worst Liverpool sides in living memory we clung on for a draw. 3 defensive mids, 1 upfront, wingers almost doubling up as full backs. Utterly embarassing at Goodison under the lights v a side the rest of the league was beating easily. Think we had our first shot in the 93rd minute from Coleman.

I thought that was the worst before the other week which was quite simply not only the worst Derby but probably the worst Everton performance I have seen in my life full stop.

 

[Brendan Janus]

RM is 'Livin La Vida Loca' !!

 

[Ashtonian]

Personally didn't think that one was even on the same scale as last month's.

Yes, the organisation in that match was dreadful, but at least there was EFFORT. I've never known an Everton manager not even be able to get his players to TRY in a derby game, no matter how disorganised (or in certain years, downright untalented) they might have been.

Aye but the question originally was about a bad derby display under moyes as if every derby game was fine. the last one was worse, because the manager is worse, but it doesn't change the poor display in that one. Other defeats at least looked hardworking defeats and beaten by the better team, or screwed out of them. That one was unique in the poor performance.

 

[Old Blue 2]

It has been most interesting reading all the view in the last few pages, particularly those of davek when he stated that us ordinary mortals are not qualified/knowledgeable enough (call it what you will) to make a proper judgement on the qualities of the Manager, what he had done for the team, how the team is playing, or whatever other tosh he said.

So, I am mindful (and think it worth mentioning on here) of a programme on Radio City in the early 1970s. Saturday lunchtime if I recall correctly. Each week Bill Shankly had a different guest on. The most interesting guest he had on for me was George Best. At a time when Best's career was going downhill. It was a good discussion, and at one point Shankly said, in so many words (and I think this was a REAL dig at Best): You can't hide on the pitch. You can't go through the motions. The crowd can see what's happening on the pitch the whole time. They know when players aren't pulling their weight. A lot of the crowd were watching the game before you were born. You play the game, but a lot of them know as much, if not more about the game than you. Never insult the crowd by pretending that you are trying. They can see through you in an instant.

What Shankly is saying to Best here is that supporters can see what's going down. You can't con them. If you try to, it insults their intelligence. Supporters watch like a hawk, and are knowledgeable. This is exactly what Martinez has done in recent months with his glowing statement about continual poor performances. He is either trying desperately to save his job, or it is a case of 'Those closest to the centre of the wheel do not actually see how it is turning'.

To davek, supporters of every club have knowledge week-in, week-out, month-in, month-out, etc., of what's happening on the pitch. They are as equally qualified as anybody (if not more so) to comment on what they see, and what is happening. That is something that Martinez apparently cannot see up to present: that he CANNOT bullshit the support of the club and think he can get away with it, which he patently has tried to do in the last few months.

I think back to our recent first half performance at Wembley, and then compare it with Atletico Madrid's 95 minutes last night, and I am embarrassed for my club...

 

[Toffeelover]

Still nearly 5% of the vote wants to keep RM, amazing. I know many point to the first season of 72 points and laud RM because of that. yes it was very good and credit was given to RM for that season. But in the last four games of that season we lost 3 of them if memory serves me right thus losing the CL spot. (perhaps that was setting the tone for the start of the next season which was not great)

So credit and applause was given to RM for that first season. But how is it he is not given credit for the last two dismal season and this one yet to finish. Many folk point to a record for Everton of 72 points but those same folk keep quiet about the record 5 home wins in a season!!!!!
It would seem it is the old tale of picking and choosing those bits that are liked and ignore the bad bits.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Aye but the question originally was about a bad derby display under moyes as if every derby game was fine. the last one was worse, because the manager is worse, but it doesn't change the poor display in that one. Other defeats at least looked hardworking defeats and beaten by the better team, or screwed out of them. That one was unique in the poor performance.

That wasn't what I said in the original post that you replied to. I just said that Moyes never served up anything close to as bad as last month.

Bad performances? Of course. Bound to over 11 year. But nothing close to what Martinez has managed TWICE now (last month was far and away the worst, but the other 4-0 sits comfortably in 2nd place of Derby shockers in recent memory) in just 3 years.

 

[brieverton]

I have shifted from getting annoyed or angry with the media, in large part they merely reflect as a mirror image the narrative which the public face of Everton have consistently presented since the 1990's. They largely ignore us as we don't give them anything to write about, nothing that has made anyone sit up and take notice.

In signing Lukaku for the amount spent, we made a "statement" albeit isolated and no longer "big" enough of its own accord to signify a tangible shift in ambition, and relatively insignificant to what we would deem our peers. We were, after all, signing a player deemed more or less a failure by the media king himself, Mr. Mourinho.

The last "statement" we made prior to that arguably,was breaking the British transfer record signing Tony Cottee. 1988? I can remember that as a teenager making the BBC 9 O'Clock news that evening.

Not that we should do anything as a priority if it will make us feel important by Sky Sports, or trend on Twitter, but I do think after years of regression and stagnation, Moshiri & Co. need to show Evertonians and the wider footballing public that the benign, unthreatening, comfort-zone Everton are going away.

 

[John Osters Love Child]

It has been most interesting reading all the view in the last few pages, particularly those of davek when he stated that us ordinary mortals are not qualified/knowledgeable enough (call it what you will) to make a proper judgement on the qualities of the Manager, what he had done for the team, how the team is playing, or whatever other tosh he said.

So, I am mindful (and think it worth mentioning on here) of a programme on Radio City in the early 1970s. Saturday lunchtime if I recall correctly. Each week Bill Shankly had a different guest on. The most interesting guest he had on for me was George Best. At a time when Best's career was going downhill. It was a good discussion, and at one point Shankly said, in so many words (and I think this was a REAL dig at Best): You can't hide on the pitch. You can't go through the motions. The crowd can see what's happening on the pitch the whole time. They know when players aren't pulling their weight. A lot of the crowd were watching the game before you were born. You play the game, but a lot of them know as much, if not more about the game than you. Never insult the crowd by pretending that you are trying. They can see through you in an instant.

What Shankly is saying to Best here is that supporters can see what's going down. You can't con them. If you try to, it insults their intelligence. Supporters watch like a hawk, and are knowledgeable. This is exactly what Martinez has done in recent months with his glowing statement about continual poor performances. He is either trying desperately to save his job, or it is a case of 'Those closest to the centre of the wheel do not actually see how it is turning'.

To davek, supporters of every club have knowledge week-in, week-out, month-in, month-out, etc., of what's happening on the pitch. They are as equally qualified as anybody (if not more so) to comment on what they see, and what is happening. That is something that Martinez apparently cannot see up to present: that he CANNOT bullshit the support of the club and think he can get away with it, which he patently has tried to do in the last few months.

I think back to our recent first half performance at Wembley, and then compare it with Atletico Madrid's 95 minutes last night, and I am embarrassed for my club...

greatest
post
EVER!

 

[Ashtonian]

That wasn't what I said in the original post that you replied to. I just said that Moyes never served up anything close to as bad as last month.

Bad performances? Of course. Bound to over 11 year. But nothing close to what Martinez has managed TWICE now (last month was far and away the worst, but the other 4-0 sits comfortably in 2nd place of Derby shockers in recent memory) in just 3 years.

I'm not disagreeing with that, these derby performances have been worse.

But that is the thing, that's the bar we are now setting, what is the worse performances? Speaks volumes that you could discuss about whether the moyes one was as bad or not when realistically the discussion should not be focused on derby defeats. A sad indicator of the past 14 years when you can only pick on one hand the derby wins and measure up defeats.

 

[Ashtonian]

It has been most interesting reading all the view in the last few pages, particularly those of davek when he stated that us ordinary mortals are not qualified/knowledgeable enough (call it what you will) to make a proper judgement on the qualities of the Manager, what he had done for the team, how the team is playing, or whatever other tosh he said.

So, I am mindful (and think it worth mentioning on here) of a programme on Radio City in the early 1970s. Saturday lunchtime if I recall correctly. Each week Bill Shankly had a different guest on. The most interesting guest he had on for me was George Best. At a time when Best's career was going downhill. It was a good discussion, and at one point Shankly said, in so many words (and I think this was a REAL dig at Best): You can't hide on the pitch. You can't go through the motions. The crowd can see what's happening on the pitch the whole time. They know when players aren't pulling their weight. A lot of the crowd were watching the game before you were born. You play the game, but a lot of them know as much, if not more about the game than you. Never insult the crowd by pretending that you are trying. They can see through you in an instant.

What Shankly is saying to Best here is that supporters can see what's going down. You can't con them. If you try to, it insults their intelligence. Supporters watch like a hawk, and are knowledgeable. This is exactly what Martinez has done in recent months with his glowing statement about continual poor performances. He is either trying desperately to save his job, or it is a case of 'Those closest to the centre of the wheel do not actually see how it is turning'.

To davek, supporters of every club have knowledge week-in, week-out, month-in, month-out, etc., of what's happening on the pitch. They are as equally qualified as anybody (if not more so) to comment on what they see, and what is happening. That is something that Martinez apparently cannot see up to present: that he CANNOT bullshit the support of the club and think he can get away with it, which he patently has tried to do in the last few months.

I think back to our recent first half performance at Wembley, and then compare it with Atletico Madrid's 95 minutes last night, and I am embarrassed for my club...

Very well put mate.