Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

'largely' is going over the top.

Barry, Stones, Mccarthy, Delefeou, Lukaku, Barkley were not Moyes players.

Moyes bought Stones and gave Barkley his debut.

 

[catcherintherye]

It has been most interesting reading all the view in the last few pages, particularly those of davek when he stated that us ordinary mortals are not qualified/knowledgeable enough (call it what you will) to make a proper judgement on the qualities of the Manager, what he had done for the team, how the team is playing, or whatever other tosh he said.

So, I am mindful (and think it worth mentioning on here) of a programme on Radio City in the early 1970s. Saturday lunchtime if I recall correctly. Each week Bill Shankly had a different guest on. The most interesting guest he had on for me was George Best. At a time when Best's career was going downhill. It was a good discussion, and at one point Shankly said, in so many words (and I think this was a REAL dig at Best): You can't hide on the pitch. You can't go through the motions. The crowd can see what's happening on the pitch the whole time. They know when players aren't pulling their weight. A lot of the crowd were watching the game before you were born. You play the game, but a lot of them know as much, if not more about the game than you. Never insult the crowd by pretending that you are trying. They can see through you in an instant.

What Shankly is saying to Best here is that supporters can see what's going down. You can't con them. If you try to, it insults their intelligence. Supporters watch like a hawk, and are knowledgeable. This is exactly what Martinez has done in recent months with his glowing statement about continual poor performances. He is either trying desperately to save his job, or it is a case of 'Those closest to the centre of the wheel do not actually see how it is turning'.

To davek, supporters of every club have knowledge week-in, week-out, month-in, month-out, etc., of what's happening on the pitch. They are as equally qualified as anybody (if not more so) to comment on what they see, and what is happening. That is something that Martinez apparently cannot see up to present: that he CANNOT bullshit the support of the club and think he can get away with it, which he patently has tried to do in the last few months.

I think back to our recent first half performance at Wembley, and then compare it with Atletico Madrid's 95 minutes last night, and I am embarrassed for my club...

This is a great post. I don't think Martinez has deliberately tried to pull the wool over people's eyes, I just think the players have let him down badly. However it goes back to my original point, that there has to be accountability.

Essentially Martinez is a nice man. I think he is a bit too lenient with the players and has supported them through thick and thin and unfortunately they have hung him out to dry. Stones, the man Martinez turned into a top centre half and given freedom from Martinez has abused that position of freedom to do Cruyff turns in his own 6 yard box.

Lukaku who Martinez bought has (aside from the semi-final) given up. he has strolled around the pitch with a cob on and gone public in the press telling everyone how great he is.

Unfortunately Martinez is too close to the players and there isn't enough distance. A top manager would never have allowed those two (and there are others) to let themselves and the club down.

 

[caught]

I think that's fair, but I do remember a lot of distasteful stuff with the justification being he's not Catterick/Kendall and 6th wasn't good enough.

The key issue for me with Martinez though is would he have been appointed had Moshiri have taken over 3 years ago? He had an ok track record but in all honesty I find it hard to believe that Moyes/Smith/Martinez would have been appointed by Moshiri if he is as serious about Everton as we are led to believe. The above appointments are reflective of the narrow minded parochialism that underpinned the Kenwright approach and that you don't look beyond Lancashire for your future managers.

In many ways it is unfair that he doesn't get to spend the money. I do understand that but he'd never done enough to get appointed by a Chairman who's ambition lay much beyond Kenwrights.

At present we still await to see what Moshiri's vision is. My hope is that in the summer we punt most of what Everton has become under Kenwright. Rightly or wrongly Martinez is a part of that and the idiots suggesting we get Moyes back or Hughes (albeit not Evertonian but idiots in the media like Richard Keys) need to be shown once and for all that Everton are not just another Stoke. I think a lot of the anger now shown towards Martinez is in many ways the anger that is felt towards the old regime and what it has allowed Everton to become. Unfortunately he has become a totem for that, in a similar way to what Moyes did.

It could well be a sense of entitlement. I think though, after 15 years people have had enough, and unfortunately as part of that process people will be washed away alongside it. I don't hate Martinez and I think he has done ok, had Moshiri not come in I can't honestly say I'd be calling for him to go, I'd probably be defending him. However I just want a change and I think for a clean break to happen we need to start again and rid the club of the inertia that existed beforehand.

This is a good post that sums up the situation very well.

 

[Coffee and TV]

Im not knocking Esk at all, but he did say RM would probably be gone by last Saturday.

Like I say, not knocking and I realise things change

IIRC Esk was guessing that and he made it clear. He's said all along Martinez will be gone by the end of the season, but he doesn't know when exactly he'll leave.

 

[TheCount]

He's an utterly crap manager that ruins teams and causes untold damage to football clubs. He will struggle to find another job once he is sacked by Everton.

This bit isn't true. He is a bit crap though.

 

[riddick]

I get that the score line was atrocious but I really don't think the 0-4 at anfield 2 years ago was anywhere NEAR as bad as this years. At least there he gave it a go, he played with a high line which was suicide with Suarez and Sturridge being absolutely on point and they put us to the sword.

THIS year's, I have to say, was one of the most embarrassing derby's I've ever watched. It's not that they were beaten resoundingly, it's that there was no heart. In a fn derby. 3 shots on goal. No shape or idea of what to do.

Like I said, I get why people think the 0-4 two years ago was bad, I just think this one was so so so much worse.

I thought I'd seen the worst Derby of all time. It wasn't even the 4-0 in 13/14, for me the 0-0 at Goodison in 14/15 was criminal as from the very first kick of the game against one of the worst Liverpool sides in living memory we clung on for a draw. 3 defensive mids, 1 upfront, wingers almost doubling up as full backs. Utterly embarassing at Goodison under the lights v a side the rest of the league was beating easily. Think we had our first shot in the 93rd minute from Coleman.

I thought that was the worst before the other week which was quite simply not only the worst Derby but probably the worst Everton performance I have seen in my life full stop.

And this is another one. Playing for a draw, at home, against Liverpool. Just doesn't get it at all.

 

[bullensboy]

IIRC Esk was guessing that and he made it clear. He's said all along Martinez will be gone by the end of the season, but he doesn't know when exactly he'll leave.

Nevertheless, by even guessing it would mean Esk is surprised somewhat that he is still around

That in itself is worrying

 

[MikeH72]

I thought I'd seen the worst Derby of all time. It wasn't even the 4-0 in 13/14, for me the 0-0 at Goodison in 14/15 was criminal as from the very first kick of the game against one of the worst Liverpool sides in living memory we clung on for a draw. 3 defensive mids, 1 upfront, wingers almost doubling up as full backs. Utterly embarassing at Goodison under the lights v a side the rest of the league was beating easily. Think we had our first shot in the 93rd minute from Coleman.

I thought that was the worst before the other week which was quite simply not only the worst Derby but probably the worst Everton performance I have seen in my life full stop.

You can thank our positive, bright, innovative young manager for those performances mate

 

[Coffee and TV]

Nevertheless, by even guessing it would mean Esk is surprised somewhat that he is still around

That in itself is worrying

Not really, Esk literally said he's 100% gone by the summer. He doesn't know any more about when he'll leave between now and then than anyone else.

 

[Brendan Janus]

I didn't see the 4-0 drubbing at Analfield coming two years ago, but this seasons 4-0 drubbing was predictable !

 

[Blue Cheese]

That's just not true. Using any logic.

Look at the table in our CL year:

View attachment 22227
and this year:
View attachment 22229

I could drill down further into squad values, squad quality but I've got limited time before work. The point is, it's unquestionable that the PL is stronger and more competitive than its ever been. Stoke are tenth and have Shaqiri, Arnautovic and Bojan up front. Stoke.
What Moyes did was brilliant. You can only beat what's put in front of you, as they say. It isn't however a stick to beat the current manager with. It isn't what we should use to gauge what success is in the near future, not unless we spend big money.

Agreed, the league as a whole is much much stronger and more competitive. The top 4(now 6) just aren't as dominant as they were in them days.

 

[Old Blue 2]

greatest
post
EVER!

Thank you.

 

[jungleburger]

I take it he's not been sacked yet. ffs blues get shot

 

[KUEFC09U2]

Not really, Esk literally said he's 100% gone by the summer. He doesn't know any more about when he'll leave between now and then than anyone else.

He has even mentioned that roberto now knows he won't be here next season

 

[boris]

Only that simply hasn't happened.

He's being judged on what he's delivered with the current level of investment.

The bar is now being raised in terms of our expectations of the 'level' of the next manager, but that's got nothing to do with how the current incumbent has been judged by Evertonians.

I'd have wanted his head on a spike even if Kenwright was still in full control, whether that would have happened is a moot point, but the protests and generally feeling towards his tenure would have been completely the same imo.

Not as widespread though.

I know me personally and the 3 lads I go the game with, none of us would be as desperate for a change as we are now if it hadn't been for the new investment.

I still think as we were pre Moshri, I'd have Bobby ahead of most other realistic candidates and particularly Moyes, as I feel he does potentially have it in him to implement a style of play capable of winning things and breaking the top 4 stranglehold.

Obviously now we have the investment we don't have to sit through the will he make the changes process he needs to do to move us forward and we can afford a tried and tested winner.