Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[The Esk]

Latest thoughts:

 

[Ashtonian]

Personally i just don't understand how anyone can defend the manager anymore.

• 10 wins this season, 5 of them the bottom 3, two further were in the bottom three at the time we played them.
• Despite the striker scoring more goals, we are not winning games,
• defence is a shambles now,
• not even scoring at the end of a half means that we hold the lead anymore.
• Young players are actually not developing whatsoever
• Worst home record in history
• worst derby performance in anyone's living memory
• failing to compete in a league that has been highly competitive
• very poor signing in january for huge sum of money releative to our transfer spending
• Publicly shaming senior players and dropping others who disagree with them
• taking no responsibility for anything, including blaming the fans for the game
• Ignoring glaring weaknesses and going on record over and over that he will not change how things work
• poor backroom staff with very little experience at this level
• no in game tactics anymore, if it doesn't work then there is no change
• poor tactics generally, play without a left midfielder FFS
• poor substitutions- like for like changes when losing
• Players aren't rested, either played or dropped
• no fight in team, players do not play for the manager anymore
• pretty much vast majority of the fanbase don't want him here.
• no previous experience of improving as a manager, gone backwards in 3 jobs so far.
• no progress despite being able to keep his first team together
• actually performing worse as manager than his predecessor.
• performing worse than a period where we did not sign a player for 2 seasons
• players have been visibly unfit for 2 years now

Just a few points about martinez. Anyone disagree with any of them?

 

[Abertonian]

This is a great post. I don't think Martinez has deliberately tried to pull the wool over people's eyes, I just think the players have let him down badly. However it goes back to my original point, that there has to be accountability.

Essentially Martinez is a nice man. I think he is a bit too lenient with the players and has supported them through thick and thin and unfortunately they have hung him out to dry. Stones, the man Martinez turned into a top centre half and given freedom from Martinez has abused that position of freedom to do Cruyff turns in his own 6 yard box.

Lukaku who Martinez bought has (aside from the semi-final) given up. he has strolled around the pitch with a cob on and gone public in the press telling everyone how great he is.

Unfortunately Martinez is too close to the players and there isn't enough distance. A top manager would never have allowed those two (and there are others) to let themselves and the club down.

Agree with the vast majority of that, but Stones is not a top centre half (yet). He might become one and if he does then RM deserves a fair amount of credit for giving him a chance which someone else might not have.

The players have badly let him down, but he has created the culture in the club where thats been tolerated and allowed to develop IMO.

 

[mkrudden]

Lol...pot, meet kettle

SHAME ON ME FOR DEBATING MATE!!!

 

[bullensboy]

Personally i just don't understand how anyone can defend the manager anymore.

• 10 wins this season, 5 of them the bottom 3, two further were in the bottom three at the time we played them.
• Despite the striker scoring more goals, we are not winning games,
• defence is a shambles now,
• not even scoring at the end of a half means that we hold the lead anymore.
• Young players are actually not developing whatsoever
• Worst home record in history
• worst derby performance in anyone's living memory
• failing to compete in a league that has been highly competitive
• very poor signing in january for huge sum of money releative to our transfer spending
• Publicly shaming senior players and dropping others who disagree with them
• taking no responsibility for anything, including blaming the fans for the game
• Ignoring glaring weaknesses and going on record over and over that he will not change how things work
• poor backroom staff with very little experience at this level
• no in game tactics anymore, if it doesn't work then there is no change
• poor tactics generally, play without a left midfielder FFS
• poor substitutions- like for like changes when losing
• Players aren't rested, either played or dropped
• no fight in team, players do not play for the manager anymore
• pretty much vast majority of the fanbase don't want him here.
• no previous experience of improving as a manager, gone backwards in 3 jobs so far.
• no progress despite being able to keep his first team together
• actually performing worse as manager than his predecessor.
• performing worse than a period where we did not sign a player for 2 seasons
• players have been visibly unfit for 2 years now

Just a few points about martinez. Anyone disagree with any of them?

I would add, turning probably the best two full backs in the league into average performers (Coleman, Baines)

 

[brieverton]

This is not going to be easy and I dont think we should set the bar very high for whoever comes in next year.
My last comment to burst the bubbles of conventional wisdom - Moshiri -
- he is not THAT rich lets be honest, richer than you or I by a long way but not so rich he doesn't care about money
- he didn't get as rich as he is by blowing money on a huge transfer kitty for the summer
- He's not exactly a born blue in the sense that we are not his first football interest are we?
So all in all while the focus right now is on getting rid of Roberto (Roberto Martinez), what happens next may not be the easy street everyone seems to be hoping for - Hope is not a strategy.

I agree to an extent. I once heard a rugby coach telling his team they would focus on performance rather than outcome. The former controllable to a large degree, the latter less so.

Equally agreed that the new manager will have a huge task on his hands. I think it limits achievement by demanding "you must finish in the top 4/top 6", in the forthcoming season time and patience will be necessary ingredients. Barring a disaster of Mike Walker proportions, we will only be able to make an informed judgement on how the new manager is doing into what would hopefully be a 2nd season. This is where Martinez began to fail.

If I held the reigns of power at Everton, the thing I would ruthlessly demand of the incumbent manager would be a relentless focus to improve all aspects of the teams performance, period by period within a game, in addition to game by game, week by week, season on season. Improvement that must concretely lead to better results and better league placings or it is meaningless. Whether the improvement is good enough or not is then subject to judgement and analysis. The only thing I agreed with that Martinez has said is that you can look at targets/possible outcomes in the final 8 games or so.

 

[toffee matt]

If you're over the age of 14, you should be embarrassed lad.

Flagged

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

What would worry me if he stays on as manager would be how we'd do without a 15-20 goal a season striker

I think there's no doubt that Lukaku's goals have been the difference this season between us finishing where we are or down in the relegation zone
If Martinez does stay on, I think for sure that Lukaku is off, and probably a few other players as well. Lukaku is probably off regardless to be fair
Without Lukaku's goals, and Martinez's continued horrific defensive tactics, I'd be genuinely worried that we'd be close to getting sucked into the relegation dog fight

Cups I'm not worried about, Martinez has that down. But when it comes to the League, we'd need to have at least one top striker combined with a top level goalkeeper, otherwise we'd be in a lot of danger

Other sides have already sussed out Martinez tactically. When it comes to tactics, he has nowhere else to go, so whether we survive or not will be soley down to personnel and who we can get in

If Martinez stays and manages to use the Moshiri money well, the best we could be looking at would be another mid table finish with a cup run. If he combines good buys with a top defensive coach, we might do even better

If he buys poorly, I can honestly see us going down, although I think even our board would sack him before that happened and get someone in who had a chance of rescuing the season

This is what worries me about keeping him on. If he could just develop a Plan B and get the help he needed at the defensive end of things, I wouldn't be so worried, but I fear he simply won't do that, which means relegation could honestly be on the table next season if he stays

You're never "too big" to go down, as Villa have shown

I understand that this is based a lot on "what if's?", but then again there's 5-6 years of history that show this to be a strong possibility. There's one season where he did well, and loads more where he was doing badly. I fear for us if he doesn't buy well in the summer

 

[Omarza]

Agreed.

I think it's a bit of a myth that he's a 'nice man', and his position has become too untenable to risk another year even if he admits what the problem is.

Regarding the Myth...I might be wrong and you might be right there. I try to give him the benefit of the doubt but then again some things that took place (Blaming fans, Baines etc) points to you possibly being right.

I do agree that his position became untenable even if he admits the problem...as he already had a chance to fix the problems. I am afraid of taking a chance for another year...especially because i think that next season will be one of the most brutal/unpredictable in Premier League history (I might be wrong). I have a feeling that with all the new TV money etc coming into the League, any team slipping up can be relegated next year.

 

[catcherintherye]

Agree with the vast majority of that, but Stones is not a top centre half (yet). He might become one and if he does then RM deserves a fair amount of credit for giving him a chance which someone else might not have.

The players have badly let him down, but he has created the culture in the club where thats been tolerated and allowed to develop IMO.

Yes he has. This is his fault. In the end players will not give 100% if you allow them to get away with it. The conference after Stones's not infamous Cruyff turns Martinez praised him.
The week after Lukaku came out in the press, along with his dad and agent saying he wanted to leave and was a world class striker he praised him. He played awfully the following week and nothing was said.

Sometimes managers do that publically but behind closed doors are fierce. I got no feeling of that from Martinez. Players will treat you how you allow them to treat you.

 

[Thomasc]

Distin wasn't always solid! Frig we called him Dustbin for how long. He just wasn't as good at Everton FC Lescott. Not disagreeing with the point you were making overall, as although he was prone to brain farts we still defended better as a team.

That was near the end of his career mate, he was a fantastic acquisition for Everton football club for his price and the years served.

Our fans do have a history of turning on players even when they are being played past their best, as even David Weir and Tim Cahill discovered.

 

[Abertonian]

In the end players will not give 100% if you allow them to get away with it.

Thats it really isn't it. Lukaku should've been dropped after that nonsense, totally disrespected the club and he's done nothing of note since.

 

[Igrok]

This is a great post. I don't think Martinez has deliberately tried to pull the wool over people's eyes, I just think the players have let him down badly. However it goes back to my original point, that there has to be accountability.

Essentially Martinez is a nice man. I think he is a bit too lenient with the players and has supported them through thick and thin and unfortunately they have hung him out to dry. Stones, the man Martinez turned into a top centre half and given freedom from Martinez has abused that position of freedom to do Cruyff turns in his own 6 yard box.

Lukaku who Martinez bought has (aside from the semi-final) given up. he has strolled around the pitch with a cob on and gone public in the press telling everyone how great he is.

Unfortunately Martinez is too close to the players and there isn't enough distance. A top manager would never have allowed those two (and there are others) to let themselves and the club down.

Just wanna fking cry and send my donation to this nice man...

 

[boris]

I don't understand when people say this. What about the current style leads you to believe it will change and magically we can go from 11th to top 4? He is a possession based manager who doesn't care about defense. He wants to play like Barcelona play but puts almost no emphasis on pressing, closing down and getting the ball back when lost which is tantamount to making that style of play work. Players have looked unfit for almost 2 complete seasons. He LITERALLY has said he puts 'performance over results'.


And 'top 4 stranglehold' has been broken, but it hasn't been from "Bobby".

I didn't expect anyone to agree but I think your way off the mark with your post.

For example, he hasn't been a possession based manager for 18 months. He clearly was in his first year and the boring first half to his 2nd season when he changed to a counter attacking game to try and get results, the same style we have now. I think his first season, only Swansea had more possession than us in our fixtures, we out-possessed everyone else thats season. We are miles away from that now.

I agree on fitness, I agree on his performance over results, these are aspects of him management that need to be changed but I'd like to think he would wake up to that problem as both are easy to do. I still think he does a lot of the more difficult aspects of the management game 'right' but his stubbornness on the easier issues of the job are what have killed him.

This is not a post in support of him, as I have quite clearly said I want him out only that I'd have still preferred him over Moyes in the short term at least and many other managers if we were still skint.

 

[bcblue1878]

The next manager will be judged by the same brutal yardstick applied to Martinez, a manager who has spent only a fraction of what that successor will be spending.

That is entirely reasonable. He need to get success right off the bat or he's under the cosh and out on his ear by end of season two....or before.

No no no no, I have to stop doing this, your posts increasingly do not deserve the oxygen of publicity or even reply, so why am I doing this??

Applying your logic above re Martinez's successor and brutal yardsticks etc, please enlighten us on the comparison between your man and his predecessor! A certain Mr Moyes had a net spend of £2m per year during his time, in his last seven seasons his teams finished - 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th and then 6th in 2012/13. In his last three years his leading goal scorers were Cahill, Jelavic and Fellaini with 9, 9 and 11 goals respectively!
Please explain if you don't mind how a manager who took over that team, has spent £100m, has a net spend of £17m a season, and has a £28m striker in his team who has scored 18 league goals, and who for some weeks now has been playing like he can't wait to abandon Roberto's ship, has taken Everton to 11th last year and quite possibly 11th or worse this year.

On what brutal yardstick should we judge your man in relation to his predecessor?

Finally, and this is the last time I'll do this (I promise myself!!), the derby - at least ten or so people have asked for the benefit of your wisdom and erudite comment on, or even a defence of our soon to be ex manager on the disgrace that was that game a couple of weeks ago - your silence has been so deafening I may have missed it!