Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[billytoffee]

Nevertheless, by even guessing it would mean Esk is surprised somewhat that he is still around

That in itself is worrying

If the demographics of the GOT forum are in any way a reflection of the wider Everton fanbase then there are in excess of 90% of us still surprised and disappointed that he is still here not just Esk.

Easier said than done I know - but I think we will just have to be patient a big longer. As mere mortals we don't necessarily understand the intricacies of the workings of a multi million pound organisation in a state of significant transition so we just have to live in hope that it is all for a reason and will come good in the end.

 

[billytoffee]

I didn't see the 4-0 drubbing at Analfield coming two years ago, but this seasons 4-0 drubbing was predictable !

Yes indeed it was - and another damning reflection of the current state of affairs. If we who are not fit to judge could see that coming then how on earth did the man being paid millions to actually see it as part of his job not pick up on it?

Phenomenal levels of incompetence!

 

[malfosse]

Best of the rest pat on the head won't do anymore.

New feller comes in he needs top four or he's out.

But who decides if the manager is good enough? Not you, by your own admission only experts can decide.

 

[The Esk]

It has been most interesting reading all the view in the last few pages, particularly those of davek when he stated that us ordinary mortals are not qualified/knowledgeable enough (call it what you will) to make a proper judgement on the qualities of the Manager, what he had done for the team, how the team is playing, or whatever other tosh he said.

So, I am mindful (and think it worth mentioning on here) of a programme on Radio City in the early 1970s. Saturday lunchtime if I recall correctly. Each week Bill Shankly had a different guest on. The most interesting guest he had on for me was George Best. At a time when Best's career was going downhill. It was a good discussion, and at one point Shankly said, in so many words (and I think this was a REAL dig at Best): You can't hide on the pitch. You can't go through the motions. The crowd can see what's happening on the pitch the whole time. They know when players aren't pulling their weight. A lot of the crowd were watching the game before you were born. You play the game, but a lot of them know as much, if not more about the game than you. Never insult the crowd by pretending that you are trying. They can see through you in an instant.

What Shankly is saying to Best here is that supporters can see what's going down. You can't con them. If you try to, it insults their intelligence. Supporters watch like a hawk, and are knowledgeable. This is exactly what Martinez has done in recent months with his glowing statement about continual poor performances. He is either trying desperately to save his job, or it is a case of 'Those closest to the centre of the wheel do not actually see how it is turning'.

To davek, supporters of every club have knowledge week-in, week-out, month-in, month-out, etc., of what's happening on the pitch. They are as equally qualified as anybody (if not more so) to comment on what they see, and what is happening. That is something that Martinez apparently cannot see up to present: that he CANNOT bullshit the support of the club and think he can get away with it, which he patently has tried to do in the last few months.

I think back to our recent first half performance at Wembley, and then compare it with Atletico Madrid's 95 minutes last night, and I am embarrassed for my club...

Very good post mate, you make excellent points

 

[malfosse]

I wavered, I cannot deny.
Now our leader is back, my mindset is fortified.

#UntilDeath (or Bobby is sacked)

Why do you want Martinez to continue? Do you not think we are going backwards as a club?

 

[mkrudden]

Everyone bar a few notable WUM's and a handful of kopite lurkers is against Martinez

Even Davek won't defend the recent horror shows.. he just ignores them...

If you're over the age of 14, you should be embarrassed lad.

 

[MikeH72]

Don't forget lads if you want Martinez out you're a kopite, even though 40,000 kopites were actually singing his name the other week

 

[Charles Hawtrey]

This is a great post. I don't think Martinez has deliberately tried to pull the wool over people's eyes, I just think the players have let him down badly. However it goes back to my original point, that there has to be accountability.

Essentially Martinez is a nice man. I think he is a bit too lenient with the players and has supported them through thick and thin and unfortunately they have hung him out to dry. Stones, the man Martinez turned into a top centre half and given freedom from Martinez has abused that position of freedom to do Cruyff turns in his own 6 yard box.

Lukaku who Martinez bought has (aside from the semi-final) given up. he has strolled around the pitch with a cob on and gone public in the press telling everyone how great he is.

Unfortunately Martinez is too close to the players and there isn't enough distance. A top manager would never have allowed those two (and there are others) to let themselves and the club down.

Interesting views on the Martinez issue and I'd like to add that the environment this year has also not helped him. With Klopp showing how to take a crap team and make them look like a good team right next door, with Ranieri taking Leicester to the most improbable title win ('it could've been us' abounds), with Bilic stepping in to WHU and getting them away from being relegation fodder to Europa League, Pochettino moving Spurs from Europa fodder to CL,. The league has changed a lot this year and the old cliche of poor clubs cant win being finally removed as a crutch has made everyone view the Everton manager role in a slightly different light. There seems a strong belief that we are only a good manager away from greatness, the right appointment would see us win trophies, keep all our ambitious youngsters and attract the 'new' euro stars to the old lady.
Its a bit like almost every preseason when people pop up and say we are only 2 signings away from a top four position... as far as I can see 2 years ago we got that... almost.
We all seem to forget that the best performances of the season were built on an ageing midfield controller, that the spine of our side might get bought in the summer. Whoever comes in has a massive rebuilding job to do.
Rebuilding the confidence of the players and the fan base
Back-filling any of our Stars that leave
Injecting some new talent into the team
Rebuilding the fitness department and the fitness of the players
Rebuilding the tactical approach of the tam and the style of play to be a successful one
Clearing out the ageing our sub par talent we have in the squad
Developing a plan to bring on the glut of young talent from the academy to replace or challenge our current starting XI

This is not going to be easy and I dont think we should set the bar very high for whoever comes in next year.
My last comment to burst the bubbles of conventional wisdom - Moshiri -
- he is not THAT rich lets be honest, richer than you or I by a long way but not so rich he doesn't care about money
- he didn't get as rich as he is by blowing money on a huge transfer kitty for the summer
- He's not exactly a born blue in the sense that we are not his first football interest are we?
So all in all while the focus right now is on getting rid of Roberto (Roberto Martinez), what happens next may not be the easy street everyone seems to be hoping for - Hope is not a strategy.

 

[a bell maul]

If you're over the age of 14, you should be embarrassed lad.

Lol...pot, meet kettle

 

[dholliday]

When Martinez took over from Moyes the team was fit...probably one of the fittest in the league and thus in my opinion why we performed well in that first season. We then lost our key fitness and conditioning coaches/staff...which some referred to as the oil in the machine. Since then we started declining in form, determination, dedication...

Agreed.

I do think he is a nice person and that his way of playing will be successful...BUT not until he seriously addresses our fitness issues. IF Martinez will address these issues I would keep him for another season and see what happens BUT unfortunately it seems he is only focused on his playing style and strengthening the team...not addressing our fitness issues which in turn affects the above mentioned points and in turn our overall performance.

I think it's a bit of a myth that he's a 'nice man', and his position has become too untenable to risk another year even if he admits what the problem is.

 

[riddick]

Not as widespread though.

I know me personally and the 3 lads I go the game with, none of us would be as desperate for a change as we are now if it hadn't been for the new investment.

I still think as we were pre Moshri, I'd have Bobby ahead of most other realistic candidates and particularly Moyes, as I feel he does potentially have it in him to implement a style of play capable of winning things and breaking the top 4 stranglehold.

Obviously now we have the investment we don't have to sit through the will he make the changes process he needs to do to move us forward and we can afford a tried and tested winner.

I don't understand when people say this. What about the current style leads you to believe it will change and magically we can go from 11th to top 4? He is a possession based manager who doesn't care about defense. He wants to play like Barcelona play but puts almost no emphasis on pressing, closing down and getting the ball back when lost which is tantamount to making that style of play work. Players have looked unfit for almost 2 complete seasons. He LITERALLY has said he puts 'performance over results'.


And 'top 4 stranglehold' has been broken, but it hasn't been from "Bobby".

 

[4737carlin]

I think it's a bit of a myth that he's a 'nice man', and his position has become too untenable to risk another year even if he admits what the problem is.

I agree on that, he comes across as a nice man in post match interviews, he might have a smile on his face all the time, but I think a characteristic of a genuine nice man is the ability to admit you were wrong and adapt, to listen to others, and there is no way he cando that.

 

[billytoffee]

Hope is not a strategy.

You are right mate it isn't. The vision and strategic direction that the club will travel in will come from the owner and the board. We can support and we can protest at appropriate times, in appropriate ways and whenever we see fit.

Hope is the thing that is common to us all - without hope we have nothing. Without hope we accept second best and stagnate or regress. it is the hope of better things to come that should be bringing us together.

I hope that those charged with making the difficult decisions make them at the time that is best for the club and for us. I hope they get those decisions right and I hope to see Everton at the top of the domestic and European game once again before I pop off this mortal coil and leave it to my kids and hopefully theirs.

 

[streeky]

It has been most interesting reading all the view in the last few pages, particularly those of davek when he stated that us ordinary mortals are not qualified/knowledgeable enough (call it what you will) to make a proper judgement on the qualities of the Manager, what he had done for the team, how the team is playing, or whatever other tosh he said.

So, I am mindful (and think it worth mentioning on here) of a programme on Radio City in the early 1970s. Saturday lunchtime if I recall correctly. Each week Bill Shankly had a different guest on. The most interesting guest he had on for me was George Best. At a time when Best's career was going downhill. It was a good discussion, and at one point Shankly said, in so many words (and I think this was a REAL dig at Best): You can't hide on the pitch. You can't go through the motions. The crowd can see what's happening on the pitch the whole time. They know when players aren't pulling their weight. A lot of the crowd were watching the game before you were born. You play the game, but a lot of them know as much, if not more about the game than you. Never insult the crowd by pretending that you are trying. They can see through you in an instant.

What Shankly is saying to Best here is that supporters can see what's going down. You can't con them. If you try to, it insults their intelligence. Supporters watch like a hawk, and are knowledgeable. This is exactly what Martinez has done in recent months with his glowing statement about continual poor performances. He is either trying desperately to save his job, or it is a case of 'Those closest to the centre of the wheel do not actually see how it is turning'.

To davek, supporters of every club have knowledge week-in, week-out, month-in, month-out, etc., of what's happening on the pitch. They are as equally qualified as anybody (if not more so) to comment on what they see, and what is happening. That is something that Martinez apparently cannot see up to present: that he CANNOT bullshit the support of the club and think he can get away with it, which he patently has tried to do in the last few months.

I think back to our recent first half performance at Wembley, and then compare it with Atletico Madrid's 95 minutes last night, and I am embarrassed for my club...

No more so with the press in this country who still refuse to accept that Martinez is nothing but an outstanding manager, and that has been let down by the players. I wish some would actually watch some of our games before making assumptions based on 4 minutes of match of the day coverage.

 

[Lanolin]

Not as widespread though.

I know me personally and the 3 lads I go the game with, none of us would be as desperate for a change as we are now if it hadn't been for the new investment.

I still think as we were pre Moshri, I'd have Bobby ahead of most other realistic candidates and particularly Moyes, as I feel he does potentially have it in him to implement a style of play capable of winning things and breaking the top 4 stranglehold.

Obviously now we have the investment we don't have to sit through the will he make the changes process he needs to do to move us forward and we can afford a tried and tested winner.

I'm actually the total opposite. I 100% want Martinez gone, don't get me wrong, but I'm actually more relaxed than I was pre-Moshiri.

I thought that this might be the best squad we'd ever have, and that the whole thing was going to crumble because of his poor management, but I'm now hopeful that a)We're in a position to turn down bids for current stars, and b)We can go out and attract good players to join us.

I'd have sacked him months ago personally, but I no longer think that the entire future of the club as at threat if we keep him, as I did at the turn of the year.