Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Ashtonian]

I would add, turning probably the best two full backs in the league into average performers (Coleman, Baines)

I'd argue that comes with poor tactics. Baines has no immediate cover in front of him so he can't attack the way he would like to, similarly there is no cover behind him so he tends to get doubled up on in games.

 

[davek]

Actually it is the recognition that an ambitious owner will not allow this opportunity in terms of timing and resources available to be wasted. The fear amongst most Evertonians is that the wasted opportunities of the last two years will continue, resulting in the breaking up of a promising squad with genuine talent and prospects, the inability to attract leading talent despite the resources being available for the first time in a generation, more deterioration in our competitive position relative to our peers, and the prospects of another season of the soulless, shapeless, incomprehensible playing style of the last few months.

David France put it very clearly when he said we have a final opportunity to make ourselves relevant again as a big football club able to compete domestically and in Europe. If we miss this chance we in all probability will never get another one again.

That's the fear, permanent irrelevance, in a football environment more competitive and demanding than ever. Moshiri is not investing his own millions to allow that to happen. Hence Martinez not being "fit for purpose" and the requirement for the most suitable and qualified candidate to replace him.

You don't need to be an expert to understand that.

Unlike you mate I'll judge Moshiri on his actions. Buying shares means nothing to me. If he gets rid of a manager and installs a new one he is under the microscope and he becomes the story. If he chooses the wrong one or chooses one and fails to back him to the extent that he's hinted at then his honeymoon period is over.

I place no great store in mammon. In a football environment Moshiri has done nothing. NOTHING. He's got his cash by financially servicing a powerful man. There is no guarantee whatsoever that he can make a football club work. The PL is littered with such failures.

As for a fear of missed or wasted opportunities under any such new regime being the engine of criticism of our present manager, how on earth can that be levelled at Martinez - a man not benefitting from it? You have the cart before the horse and are a bit confused over this I feel. He's a manager who has been playing the same hand that was dealt his predecessor and he surpassed him in some ways with it and failed to match him in other ways. That is essentially it on the subject of Martinez. Whomever succeeds RM will be (MUST BE) judged even more harshly than either Moyes or Martinez because of the likely level of backing. That's something I'll be keeping a close eye on and making sure they do have the *ahem* required "skill sets" to get the job done.

In short: there is way too much OTT denigration of a fine man and manager and equally way too much credit given to a new share holder who has achieved zero in the game.

 

[MikeH72]

No no no no, I have to stop doing this, your posts increasingly do not deserve the oxygen of publicity or even reply, so why am I doing this??

Applying your logic above re Martinez's successor and brutal yardsticks etc, please enlighten us on the comparison between your man and his predecessor! A certain Mr Moyes had a net spend of £2m per year during his time, in his last seven seasons his teams finished - 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th and then 6th in 2012/13. In his last three years his leading goal scorers were Cahill, Jelavic and Fellaini with 9, 9 and 11 goals respectively!
Please explain if you don't mind how a manager who took over that team, has spent £100m, has a net spend of £17m a season, and has a £28m striker in his team who has scored 18 league goals, and who for some weeks now has been playing like he can't wait to abandon Roberto's ship, has taken Everton to 11th last year and quite possibly 11th or worse this year.

On what brutal yardstick should we judge your man in relation to his predecessor?

Finally, and this is the last time I'll do this (I promise myself!!), the derby - at least ten or so people have asked for the benefit of your wisdom and erudite comment on, or even a defence of our soon to be ex manager on the disgrace that was that game a couple of weeks ago - your silence has been so deafening I may have missed it!

All of that is very easily dismissed, because 72 points

 

[deipnosophist]

No no no no, I have to stop doing this, your posts increasingly do not deserve the oxygen of publicity or even reply, so why am I doing this??

Applying your logic above re Martinez's successor and brutal yardsticks etc, please enlighten us on the comparison between your man and his predecessor! A certain Mr Moyes had a net spend of £2m per year during his time, in his last seven seasons his teams finished - 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th and then 6th in 2012/13. In his last three years his leading goal scorers were Cahill, Jelavic and Fellaini with 9, 9 and 11 goals respectively!
Please explain if you don't mind how a manager who took over that team, has spent £100m, has a net spend of £17m a season, and has a £28m striker in his team who has scored 18 league goals, and who for some weeks now has been playing like he can't wait to abandon Roberto's ship, has taken Everton to 11th last year and quite possibly 11th or worse this year.

On what brutal yardstick should we judge your man in relation to his predecessor?

Finally, and this is the last time I'll do this (I promise myself!!), the derby - at least ten or so people have asked for the benefit of your wisdom and erudite comment on, or even a defence of our soon to be ex manager on the disgrace that was that game a couple of weeks ago - your silence has been so deafening I may have missed it!

...don't engage mate . You are wasting your energy.

 

[Abertonian]

Whomever succeeds RM will be (MUST BE) judged even more harshly than either Moyes or Martinez because of the likely level of backing.

Yes any successor given greater backing should/must be, but isn't that a good thing?

 

[squonk]

All of that is very easily dismissed, because 72 points

any chance you could change your username to mikeh11th ?

 

[People75]

No no no no, I have to stop doing this, your posts increasingly do not deserve the oxygen of publicity or even reply, so why am I doing this??

Applying your logic above re Martinez's successor and brutal yardsticks etc, please enlighten us on the comparison between your man and his predecessor! A certain Mr Moyes had a net spend of £2m per year during his time, in his last seven seasons his teams finished - 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th and then 6th in 2012/13. In his last three years his leading goal scorers were Cahill, Jelavic and Fellaini with 9, 9 and 11 goals respectively!
Please explain if you don't mind how a manager who took over that team, has spent £100m, has a net spend of £17m a season, and has a £28m striker in his team who has scored 18 league goals, and who for some weeks now has been playing like he can't wait to abandon Roberto's ship, has taken Everton to 11th last year and quite possibly 11th or worse this year.

On what brutal yardstick should we judge your man in relation to his predecessor?

Finally, and this is the last time I'll do this (I promise myself!!), the derby - at least ten or so people have asked for the benefit of your wisdom and erudite comment on, or even a defence of our soon to be ex manager on the disgrace that was that game a couple of weeks ago - your silence has been so deafening I may have missed it!

Just on the sidenote. If Everton end up 11th this season, it will give us an avarage of a 8,6th place, over the last three seasons.

 

[The Esk]

As for a fear of missed or wasted opportunities under any such new regime being the engine of criticism of our present manager, how on earth can that be levelled at Martinez - a man not benefitting from it? You have the cart before the horse and are a bit confused over this I feel. He's a manager who has been playing the same hand that was dealt his predecessor and he surpassed him in some ways with it and failed to match him in other ways. That is essentially it on the subject of Martinez. Whomever succeeds RM will be (MUST BE) judged even more harshly than either Moyes or Martinez because of the likely level of backing. That's something I'll be keeping a close eye on and making sure they do have the *ahem* required "skill sets" to get the job done.

The point is any investor will prior to investing, look at the people he has running the future investment and determine whether or not they can deliver to the required objectives. My premise is that Martinez will not be capable of delivering therefore will not be given the opportunity to perform the task.

If you think that's unfair or harsh, well that's the real world - you seek the very best people resources to deliver the objectives of the investment programme.

Despite your protestations, there's nothing in the Martinez CV that demonstrates him capable of doing that.

 

[MikeH72]

any chance you could change your username to mikeh11th ?

HAHAHA oh no how have I never noticed that before. I'm a walking davek advertisement

 

[Woolly Blue]

Personally i just don't understand how anyone can defend the manager anymore.

• 10 wins this season, 5 of them the bottom 3, two further were in the bottom three at the time we played them.
• Despite the striker scoring more goals, we are not winning games,
• defence is a shambles now,
• not even scoring at the end of a half means that we hold the lead anymore.
• Young players are actually not developing whatsoever
• Worst home record in history
• worst derby performance in anyone's living memory
• failing to compete in a league that has been highly competitive
• very poor signing in january for huge sum of money releative to our transfer spending
• Publicly shaming senior players and dropping others who disagree with them
• taking no responsibility for anything, including blaming the fans for the game
• Ignoring glaring weaknesses and going on record over and over that he will not change how things work
• poor backroom staff with very little experience at this level
• no in game tactics anymore, if it doesn't work then there is no change
• poor tactics generally, play without a left midfielder FFS
• poor substitutions- like for like changes when losing
• Players aren't rested, either played or dropped
• no fight in team, players do not play for the manager anymore
• pretty much vast majority of the fanbase don't want him here.
• no previous experience of improving as a manager, gone backwards in 3 jobs so far.
• no progress despite being able to keep his first team together
• actually performing worse as manager than his predecessor.
• performing worse than a period where we did not sign a player for 2 seasons
• players have been visibly unfit for 2 years now

Just a few points about martinez. Anyone disagree with any of them?

I was told years ago, that six bullet points was about the maximum that people could sensibly deal with before they just became a wall of text.
Sorry like, and I'm sure there's some good stuff in there, but you're even more wordy than I am !

 

[catcherintherye]

Interesting views on the Martinez issue and I'd like to add that the environment this year has also not helped him. With Klopp showing how to take a crap team and make them look like a good team right next door, with Ranieri taking Leicester to the most improbable title win ('it could've been us' abounds), with Bilic stepping in to WHU and getting them away from being relegation fodder to Europa League, Pochettino moving Spurs from Europa fodder to CL,. The league has changed a lot this year and the old cliche of poor clubs cant win being finally removed as a crutch has made everyone view the Everton manager role in a slightly different light. There seems a strong belief that we are only a good manager away from greatness, the right appointment would see us win trophies, keep all our ambitious youngsters and attract the 'new' euro stars to the old lady.
Its a bit like almost every preseason when people pop up and say we are only 2 signings away from a top four position... as far as I can see 2 years ago we got that... almost.
We all seem to forget that the best performances of the season were built on an ageing midfield controller, that the spine of our side might get bought in the summer. Whoever comes in has a massive rebuilding job to do.
Rebuilding the confidence of the players and the fan base
Back-filling any of our Stars that leave
Injecting some new talent into the team
Rebuilding the fitness department and the fitness of the players
Rebuilding the tactical approach of the tam and the style of play to be a successful one
Clearing out the ageing our sub par talent we have in the squad
Developing a plan to bring on the glut of young talent from the academy to replace or challenge our current starting XI

This is not going to be easy and I dont think we should set the bar very high for whoever comes in next year.
My last comment to burst the bubbles of conventional wisdom - Moshiri -
- he is not THAT rich lets be honest, richer than you or I by a long way but not so rich he doesn't care about money
- he didn't get as rich as he is by blowing money on a huge transfer kitty for the summer
- He's not exactly a born blue in the sense that we are not his first football interest are we?
So all in all while the focus right now is on getting rid of Roberto (Roberto Martinez), what happens next may not be the easy street everyone seems to be hoping for - Hope is not a strategy.

A really good post mate, you are right that you can look at things optimistically, or worryingly. I think there is truth in both positions and at present we stand at a crossroads this summer. I know that's a cliché and in all honesty I don't think we have been at a cross roads very often but this summer we really are. 1 Direction as you put it lies Aston Villa and the other direction could be Spurs. There are parts of the club that remind me of both of those. We are essentially a young squad, inconsistent with an inconsistent manager.

If we look at the squad in more detail we lack enough in he middle ages. We have some good experienced pro's and a lot of good young players. What worries me are the lack of players between say 26-32 the peak years as it were. However what can't be denied is that in Deulofeu, Barkley, Lukaku, Stones we have 4 outstanding young players. This is also alongside Besic, McCarthy, Mori, Coleman who are a little older and good players and Ledson, Davies, Pennington, Galloway, Browning who are younger and shown promise.

Barry has been our best player this season but is in my view both the rescue man and the symptom of wider problems. Stones gives the ball away=Barry gets it back. Mori wanders out of position= Barry fills in the gap. Barkley doesn't track back= Barry fills in the gap. McCarthy/Besic don't dominate the game= Barry fills in the gap. He is the sticking plaster covering the wound. I feel for Barry, in a side full of players who lack responsibility he has conducted himself very well and tried to limit the damage of their mistakes. However if someone got the team playing properly (and not doing all the things I mentioned above) then I do wonder what role he has to play. It's almost as if with Martinez, rather than getting people to take responsibility, we allow them to play how they like and put 1 responsible player in to sort out the mess.

As for Moshiri, we currently know very little and are basing it on snippets of information. However what we do know is that the Forbes estimation is very conservative (due to them having a poor knowledge of Russia companies) and also a little out of date. I have seen sources saying they wouldn't be surprised if he's worth significantly more than the 1.5-2 billion thrown around.

That is a little by the by though. He can stump up some money for spending but to me it's about a wider attitude. This summer is critical. By all rights, we are now a Stoke in most people's mind. We have finished in the bottom half twice. It's our last bite of the cherry and if we have another season of struggling all our top players will be agitating to leave. All that is standing in their way currently, is the hope that Moshiri will sort out the mess. Had he not turned up and we kept Martinez, Stones & Lukaku would be gone and I suspect Barkley and McCarthy not too far behind.

Hope isn't a strategy but what it is an acceptance that we are not incapable of falling into the abyss. Whoever comes in will have a rebuild job and they. like Martinez should get 2/3 years to build a team in their image and be judged again on it.

 

[bcblue1878]

What would worry me if he stays on as manager would be how we'd do without a 15-20 goal a season striker

This is what worries me about keeping him on. If he could just develop a Plan B and get the help he needed at the defensive end of things, I wouldn't be so worried, but I fear he simply won't do that, which means relegation could honestly be on the table next season if he stays

You're never "too big" to go down, as Villa have shown

I understand that this is based a lot on "what if's?", but then again there's 5-6 years of history that show this to be a strong possibility. There's one season where he did well, and loads more where he was doing badly. I fear for us if he doesn't buy well in the summer

My guess is it'll be a "mutual consent" announcement, and he won't be here beyond 1st June! Don't think you need to worry about him spending any more money here!

 

[billytoffee]

No no no no, I have to stop doing this, your posts increasingly do not deserve the oxygen of publicity or even reply, so why am I doing this??

It is quite frustrating when he finally reels you in with his bizzare ramblings (I cracked earlier today also) but even flogging a dead horse does offer some form of exercise.

 

[davek]

Yes any successor given greater backing should/must be, but isn't that a good thing?

For good or bad mate, that is the era we now live in. The food just got way richer and the Everton organisational metabolism will have to speed up to accommodate it.

 

[Ashtonian]

For good or bad mate, that is the era we now live in. The food just got way richer and the Everton organisational metabolism will have to speed up to accommodate it.

Isnt that a good thing?

We have had 14 years of nothing, 21 years without any cup in the cabinet.

Isn't it good that the expectations are going to grow quite a bit? If we fail, then we fail. Least we are having a go for the first time in 30 years.