Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[riddick]

Agreed. This season is atrocious. Next season we can get back to the 60+ point mark we should and need to be at.

Dave, go read his comments in the other thread.

The man has lost the plot, he claims Howard has had an excellent season.

Hes done.

He's a case.

I swear to God he's taking the piss.

*salutes*

To your question though:we can finish top7/8 again next season, no question. No Thursday/Sunday schedule will help us enormously...as will buying a decent Cb and playmaker.

Who the fck wants to finish 7th or 8th?

...these losers around here. I'm just pandering to their mediocrity to pacify them.

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/back-to-normal-next-season.73917/page-3

 

[deipnosophist]

OK, let's take the above paragraph by paragraph, and see if it stands up to critical examination.

Paragraph 1. Moshiri will never become the story. That is a facile, red herring of a statement to make. The story is the Manager and the team on the pitch, and the results they achieve (or otherwise as the case may be). The role of those behind the scenes is to support and run the club for the benefit of all.

Paragraph 2. Moshiri was part of the 'behind the scenes' team that saw Arsenal win certain things, yes? It matters not one whit how he generated his present wealth. Another red herring - two out of two so far...

Paragraph 3. Martinez has supassed his predecessor? Champions League place? No. 72 points, as I have pointed out to you before (and received no response) was clearly on the back of the Moyes team that he inherited. That carried us through the first season of Martinez's tenure, no doubt about that. Since then, Martinez has been consistent in his mediocrity, in that he has managed the team to a bottom half league place, and will likely do the same this season. Same hand that was dealt his predecessor? £28 mil on Lukaku. Moyes could only dream of spending that on one player. How much on Niasse? Another red herring, squire. Three out of three so far...

Paragraph 4. "...In short: there is way too much OTT denigration of a fine man and manager..." I cannot comment on his qualities as a man, as I do not know him personally. As for being a fine Manager, have you not studied the statistics? All the information shows that there has been a continual decline in achivement under his watch last season and this. This is not conjecture, this is fact. The 'win-to-games' %age shows that quite clearly. Fine Manager? Another red herring. Four out of four. Finally, show me where too much credit has been given to Moshiri. There is anticipation, and expectation, but credit...?

Disengage mate...you can argue with Rumpelstiltskin til the cows come home.... Just agree to disagree and then ignore him

 

[billytoffee]

Hopefully the next manager won't be subject to the same ridiculously unrealistic expectations that Martinez has. Imagine having a squad only containing the likes of Barkley, Lukaku, Deulofeu, Mirallas, Baines, Jagielka, Coleman, Stones and Lennon and being expected to not finish in the bottom half 2 seasons in a row. As well as having a net spend of 47.7m over 3 years. Brutal.

ooof thats a compelling argument for dismissal right there

I think you could be onto something there bullens - no matter what you may choose to pull out of our recent history or beyond, and regardless of what other minor straws of underachievement, mediocrity or placing at 1st 2nd 3rd loser etc you may clutch at, I think Eric's brief point above does sort of hammer home the reality of what we have been served up this season.

 

[mkrudden]

Flagged

Mate, you're calling all people who disagree with you either WUMs or Kopites.
Whilst I am used to good natured abuse, mainly from @orly and @Eric Djemba-Djemba - both of whom have me howling with laughter regularly as they assasinate me and my defence of the manager, I don't think there is any need for the stance you're taking.
Probably there isnt a need to call you 14 years old - apologies, but there is SO MUCH to debate about and criticise me and Davek for however my 'agenda' for having a different opinion isnt one of them.
Let's put this to bed and just enjoy the debate.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Disengage mate...you can argue with Rumpelstiltskin til the cows come home.... Just agree to disagree and then ignore him

Why? When I can dismantle him 100%...

 

[Zatara]

OK, let's take the above paragraph by paragraph, and see if it stands up to critical examination.

Paragraph 1. Moshiri will never become the story. That is a facile, red herring of a statement to make. The story is the Manager and the team on the pitch, and the results they achieve (or otherwise as the case may be). The role of those behind the scenes is to support and run the club for the benefit of all.

Paragraph 2. Moshiri was part of the 'behind the scenes' team that saw Arsenal win certain things, yes? It matters not one whit how he generated his present wealth. Another red herring - two out of two so far...

Paragraph 3. Martinez has supassed his predecessor? Champions League place? No. 72 points, as I have pointed out to you before (and received no response) was clearly on the back of the Moyes team that he inherited. That carried us through the first season of Martinez's tenure, no doubt about that. Since then, Martinez has been consistent in his mediocrity, in that he has managed the team to a bottom half league place, and will likely do the same this season. Same hand that was dealt his predecessor? £28 mil on Lukaku. Moyes could only dream of spending that on one player. How much on Niasse? Another red herring, squire. Three out of three so far...

Paragraph 4. "...In short: there is way too much OTT denigration of a fine man and manager..." I cannot comment on his qualities as a man, as I do not know him personally. As for being a fine Manager, have you not studied the statistics? All the information shows that there has been a continual decline in achivement under his watch last season and this. This is not conjecture, this is fact. The 'win-to-games' %age shows that quite clearly. Fine Manager? Another red herring. Four out of four. Finally, show me where too much credit has been given to Moshiri. There is anticipation, and expectation, but credit...?

1-- of course moshiri will become the story, look at roman at chelsea.

2- no he had no say in anything at arsenal.

 

[Old Blue 2]

1-- of course moshiri will become the story, look at roman at chelsea.

2- no he had no say in anything at arsenal.

1. I stand by my contention that the Manager & the team are ALWAYS the story. If those in the boardroom screw it up, they get pilloried, but it is the Manager and the team upon whom all results are based and judged.

2. He was part of the boardroom set-up given his investment in the club. I would expect that given his investment there, he would have taken note of the running of the club and how it functioned. I don't believe he invested blindly. I believe he has knowledge of what it takes to win things. Whether that results in his investment in Everton translating into success for the team on the pitch remains to be seen. Nothing more than that.

 

[billytoffee]

Mate, you're calling all people who disagree with you either WUMs or Kopites.
Whilst I am used to good natured abuse, mainly from @orly and @Eric Djemba-Djemba - both of whom have me howling with laughter regularly as they assasinate me and my defence of the manager, I don't think there is any need for the stance you're taking.
Probably there isnt a need to call you 14 years old - apologies, but there is SO MUCH to debate about and criticise me and Davek for however my 'agenda' for having a different opinion isnt one of them.
Let's put this to bed and just enjoy the debate.

You proabably need to keep in mind though mate that your main partner in crime appears to have been throwing the kopite and geordie tags at people in at least equal measure, if not more, from what I've seen recently, whilst continuing to cherry pick what he chooses to answer or not.

I think that frustration rises on both sides and leads to the ineveitable snap or statement of something innaproriate.

Hopefully the meaningful debate can continue and we can all get better at rising above the levels of lunacy generated by those obvioulsy intent on WUMing or whose social media/internet persona would give serious cause for concern in the real world.

So with that in mind - do you think it is time for Roberto to get off yet?

 

[Zatara]

1. I stand by my contention that the Manager & the team are ALWAYS the story. If those in the boardroom screw it up, they get pilloried, but it is the Manager and the team upon whom all results are based and judged.

2. He was part of the boardroom set-up given his investment in the club. I would expect that given his investment there, he would have taken note of the running of the club and how it functioned. I don't believe he invested blindly. I believe he has knowledge of what it takes to win things. Whether that results in his investment in Everton translating into success for the team on the pitch remains to be seen. Nothing more than that.

1- so if he appoints an obviously dreadful manager then blame the manager not him?

2- No he was not part of the board at all. He was merely an investor with usmanov via red/white holdings....zero participation in the club.

 

[Bungle]

Mate, you're calling all people who disagree with you either WUMs or Kopites.
Whilst I am used to good natured abuse, mainly from @orly and @Eric Djemba-Djemba - both of whom have me howling with laughter regularly as they assasinate me and my defence of the manager, I don't think there is any need for the stance you're taking.

Serious?

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

This is a great post. I don't think Martinez has deliberately tried to pull the wool over people's eyes, I just think the players have let him down badly. However it goes back to my original point, that there has to be accountability.

Essentially Martinez is a nice man. I think he is a bit too lenient with the players and has supported them through thick and thin and unfortunately they have hung him out to dry. Stones, the man Martinez turned into a top centre half and given freedom from Martinez has abused that position of freedom to do Cruyff turns in his own 6 yard box.

Lukaku who Martinez bought has (aside from the semi-final) given up. he has strolled around the pitch with a cob on and gone public in the press telling everyone how great he is.

Unfortunately Martinez is too close to the players and there isn't enough distance. A top manager would never have allowed those two (and there are others) to let themselves and the club down.

Think Martinez saying he didn't have a problem with Lukaku touting himself around Europe in an interview, but then in the same breath drag in Baines to apologise for saying the team doesn't have any chemistry (which is true) probably doesn't help in the dressing room, it has a whiff of favouritism.

 

[Lanolin]

A really good post mate, you are right that you can look at things optimistically, or worryingly. I think there is truth in both positions and at present we stand at a crossroads this summer. I know that's a cliché and in all honesty I don't think we have been at a cross roads very often but this summer we really are. 1 Direction as you put it lies Aston Villa and the other direction could be Spurs. There are parts of the club that remind me of both of those. We are essentially a young squad, inconsistent with an inconsistent manager.

If we look at the squad in more detail we lack enough in he middle ages. We have some good experienced pro's and a lot of good young players. What worries me are the lack of players between say 26-32 the peak years as it were. However what can't be denied is that in Deulofeu, Barkley, Lukaku, Stones we have 4 outstanding young players. This is also alongside Besic, McCarthy, Mori, Coleman who are a little older and good players and Ledson, Davies, Pennington, Galloway, Browning who are younger and shown promise.

Barry has been our best player this season but is in my view both the rescue man and the symptom of wider problems. Stones gives the ball away=Barry gets it back. Mori wanders out of position= Barry fills in the gap. Barkley doesn't track back= Barry fills in the gap. McCarthy/Besic don't dominate the game= Barry fills in the gap. He is the sticking plaster covering the wound. I feel for Barry, in a side full of players who lack responsibility he has conducted himself very well and tried to limit the damage of their mistakes. However if someone got the team playing properly (and not doing all the things I mentioned above) then I do wonder what role he has to play. It's almost as if with Martinez, rather than getting people to take responsibility, we allow them to play how they like and put 1 responsible player in to sort out the mess.

As for Moshiri, we currently know very little and are basing it on snippets of information. However what we do know is that the Forbes estimation is very conservative (due to them having a poor knowledge of Russia companies) and also a little out of date. I have seen sources saying they wouldn't be surprised if he's worth significantly more than the 1.5-2 billion thrown around.

That is a little by the by though. He can stump up some money for spending but to me it's about a wider attitude. This summer is critical. By all rights, we are now a Stoke in most people's mind. We have finished in the bottom half twice. It's our last bite of the cherry and if we have another season of struggling all our top players will be agitating to leave. All that is standing in their way currently, is the hope that Moshiri will sort out the mess. Had he not turned up and we kept Martinez, Stones & Lukaku would be gone and I suspect Barkley and McCarthy not too far behind.

Hope isn't a strategy but what it is an acceptance that we are not incapable of falling into the abyss. Whoever comes in will have a rebuild job and they. like Martinez should get 2/3 years to build a team in their image and be judged again on it.

I've mentioned this before, but I do think that's a bit of a red herring. I think the make up of our squad is pretty standard really, with an equal spread of youth, experience, and players at their peak. Whether the players at their peak are of sufficient quality is obviously open to debate, but we certainly have them.

Robles, Funes Mori, Coleman, Baines, Oviedo, McCarthy, Gibson, Lennon, Mirallas, Niasse and Kone all fall into that category, so we could effectively put out a balanced team full of players in their peak years. I'd also say that Lukaku and Besic are now coming to an age where, while they may not be right at their peak, they are well past the novice stage. I think the young and inconsistent line has been way overused in relation to this squad, particularly when some of the young players have been among the more consistent performers.

 

[Igrok]

Why? When I can dismantle him 100%...

You cant dismantle hot air...only freeze it...

 

[deipnosophist]

Why? When I can dismantle him 100%...

Fair enough mate...72 points eh?

 

[orly]

Serious?

Not unlike your mother, I'm just giving the public what they want