Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Papa Shango]

Are you suggesting Moyes's defensive record was not better than Martinez's?, because that's the comparison being made here, Jags and Distin under Moyes was a great partnership, once Distin questioned Martinez's methods he was frozen out.

And that ageing squad you mentioned got 72 points, so it weren't that bad was it.

Moyes left Martinez a fantastic squad, a top 6 squad, well schooled in organisation and defending, a fighting team spirit 2nd to none in the league.

No im not suggesting that. If I was I would have said it!

Jagielka and Distin was an average partnership. I have said this loads and am getting bored of repeating it but... every time the defence was called upon in the proper big matches, the games that meant something, they were found wanting.

Distin was 37 years old! He wasnt good enough at that point. He was "frozen out" because the next big thing defensively was coming through in John Stones. Jagielka was the captain so of course Distin was the one to make way. As he should be.

Aging doesnt stop once you get a certain amount of points! That season was the last year you could get out of certain players. Osman, Hibbert, Howard, Pienaar even Baines to an extent. Jagielka was getting more knocks. Gibson was...well Gibson. There was an awful lot to replace there. The squad was good yes, not fantastic, 6th place is not fantastic, fighting spirit second to none does not result in you barely ever beating one of the big boys or constantly coming up short. There are major mental flaws at our club that will take years to eradicate.

And I will say it again, the defence was NOT that good. The rest of the team was better defensively probably because we were less attacking (though its a myth that we were boring to watch too, we played some great stuff at times if I am being fair.)

I have a massive issue with people lauding how good Moyes was defensively. Was I the only one sat there when we got battered by Arsenal every season? Was I the only one there when we started every season horribly? I must have been the only one to see us get destroyed by a third rate Romanian side or be on the wrong ends of 4 goal drubbings to such luminaries as Bolton, Aston Villa and West Brom.

 

[davek]

The point is any investor will prior to investing, look at the people he has running the future investment and determine whether or not they can deliver to the required objectives. My premise is that Martinez will not be capable of delivering therefore will not be given the opportunity to perform the task.

If you think that's unfair or harsh, well that's the real world - you seek the very best people resources to deliver the objectives of the investment programme.

Despite your protestations, there's nothing in the Martinez CV that demonstrates him capable of doing that.

We'll let me put it this way: any future manager who has the confidence of the new owner to deliver must be judged much more critically than one who was in situ when he arrived. That's why I say that the new manager better hit the ground running or else he is fair game given that a manager not funded by Moshiri now walks the plank.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Unlike you mate I'll judge Moshiri on his actions. Buying shares means nothing to me. If he gets rid of a manager and installs a new one he is under the microscope and he becomes the story. If he chooses the wrong one or chooses one and fails to back him to the extent that he's hinted at then his honeymoon period is over.

I place no great store in mammon. In a football environment Moshiri has done nothing. NOTHING. He's got his cash by financially servicing a powerful man. There is no guarantee whatsoever that he can make a football club work. The PL is littered with such failures.

As for a fear of missed or wasted opportunities under any such new regime being the engine of criticism of our present manager, how on earth can that be levelled at Martinez - a man not benefitting from it? You have the cart before the horse and are a bit confused over this I feel. He's a manager who has been playing the same hand that was dealt his predecessor and he surpassed him in some ways with it and failed to match him in other ways. That is essentially it on the subject of Martinez. Whomever succeeds RM will be (MUST BE) judged even more harshly than either Moyes or Martinez because of the likely level of backing. That's something I'll be keeping a close eye on and making sure they do have the *ahem* required "skill sets" to get the job done.

In short: there is way too much OTT denigration of a fine man and manager and equally way too much credit given to a new share holder who has achieved zero in the game.

OK, let's take the above paragraph by paragraph, and see if it stands up to critical examination.

Paragraph 1. Moshiri will never become the story. That is a facile, red herring of a statement to make. The story is the Manager and the team on the pitch, and the results they achieve (or otherwise as the case may be). The role of those behind the scenes is to support and run the club for the benefit of all.

Paragraph 2. Moshiri was part of the 'behind the scenes' team that saw Arsenal win certain things, yes? It matters not one whit how he generated his present wealth. Another red herring - two out of two so far...

Paragraph 3. Martinez has supassed his predecessor? Champions League place? No. 72 points, as I have pointed out to you before (and received no response) was clearly on the back of the Moyes team that he inherited. That carried us through the first season of Martinez's tenure, no doubt about that. Since then, Martinez has been consistent in his mediocrity, in that he has managed the team to a bottom half league place, and will likely do the same this season. Same hand that was dealt his predecessor? £28 mil on Lukaku. Moyes could only dream of spending that on one player. How much on Niasse? Another red herring, squire. Three out of three so far...

Paragraph 4. "...In short: there is way too much OTT denigration of a fine man and manager..." I cannot comment on his qualities as a man, as I do not know him personally. As for being a fine Manager, have you not studied the statistics? All the information shows that there has been a continual decline in achivement under his watch last season and this. This is not conjecture, this is fact. The 'win-to-games' %age shows that quite clearly. Fine Manager? Another red herring. Four out of four. Finally, show me where too much credit has been given to Moshiri. There is anticipation, and expectation, but credit...?

 

[TheFinnFan]

We'll let me put it this way: any future manager who has the confidence of the new owner to deliver must be judged much more critically than one who was in situ when he arrived. That's why I say that the new manager better hit the ground running or else he is fair game given that a manager not funded by Moshiri now walks the plank.

Who would you like to see in Martinezs place ?

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Best of the rest pat on the head won't do anymore.

Don't talk to me about pats on th'head, mert...

#Theentertainers

 

[People75]

We'll let me put it this way: any future manager who has the confidence of the new owner to deliver must be judged much more critically than one who was in situ when he arrived. That's why I say that the new manager better hit the ground running or else he is fair game given that a manager not funded by Moshiri now walks the plank.

Time will tell! Let us wait and see

 

[The Esk]

We'll let me put it this way: any future manager who has the confidence of the new owner to deliver must be judged much more critically than one who was in situ when he arrived. That's why I say that the new manager better hit the ground running or else he is fair game given that a manager not funded by Moshiri now walks the plank.

I'm really not bothered how critically the next Manager is judged. I'm bothered about having the right man in place and us winning things.

That's not a reaction driven by entitlement, it's the realisation that as in life, if you don't strive to be the best you can be, you'll never succeed.

Our raisin d'etre is to win trophies, otherwise there's no point in being a professional sports club.

 

[billytoffee]

OK, let's take the above paragraph by paragraph, and see if it stands up to critical examination.

Paragraph 1. Moshiri will never become the story. That is a facile, red herring of a statement to make. The story is the Manager and the team on the pitch, and the results they achieve (or otherwise as the case may be). The role of those behind the scenes is to support and run the club for the benefit of all.

Paragraph 2. Moshiri was part of the 'behind the scenes' team that saw Arsenal win certain things, yes? It matters not one whit how he generated his present wealth. Another red herring - two out of two so far...

Paragraph 3. Martinez has supassed his predecessor? Champions League place? No. 72 points, as I have pointed out to you before (and received no response) was clearly on the back of the Moyes team that he inherited. That carried us through the first season of Martinez's tenure, no doubt about that. Since then, Martinez has been consistent in his mediocrity, in that he has managed the team to a bottom half league place, and will likely do the same this season. Same hand that was dealt his predecessor? £28 mil on Lukaku. Moyes could only dream of spending that on one player. How much on Niasse? Another red herring, squire. Three out of three so far...

Paragraph 4. "...In short: there is way too much OTT denigration of a fine man and manager..." I cannot comment on his qualities as a man, as I do not know him personally. As for being a fine Manager, have you not studied the statistics? All the information shows that there has been a continual decline in achivement under his watch last season and this. This is not conjecture, this is fact. The 'win-to-games' %age shows that quite clearly. Fine Manager? Another red herring. Four out of four. Finally, show me where too much credit has been given to Moshiri. There is anticipation, and expectation, but credit...?

A nice reply !

It would appear there are more Herrings than a Scandinavian fish pickling convention!

 

[degsy]

Unlike you mate I'll judge Moshiri on his actions. Buying shares means nothing to me. If he gets rid of a manager and installs a new one he is under the microscope and he becomes the story. If he chooses the wrong one or chooses one and fails to back him to the extent that he's hinted at then his honeymoon period is over.

I place no great store in mammon. In a football environment Moshiri has done nothing. NOTHING. He's got his cash by financially servicing a powerful man. There is no guarantee whatsoever that he can make a football club work. The PL is littered with such failures.

As for a fear of missed or wasted opportunities under any such new regime being the engine of criticism of our present manager, how on earth can that be levelled at Martinez - a man not benefitting from it? You have the cart before the horse and are a bit confused over this I feel. He's a manager who has been playing the same hand that was dealt his predecessor and he surpassed him in some ways with it and failed to match him in other ways. That is essentially it on the subject of Martinez. Whomever succeeds RM will be (MUST BE) judged even more harshly than either Moyes or Martinez because of the likely level of backing. That's something I'll be keeping a close eye on and making sure they do have the *ahem* required "skill sets" to get the job done.

In short: there is way too much OTT denigration of a fine man and manager and equally way too much credit given to a new share holder who has achieved zero in the game.

Taken on it's own I'd give the above 7/10...it did taper off towards the end though

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

Hopefully the next manager won't be subject to the same ridiculously unrealistic expectations that Martinez has. Imagine having a squad only containing the likes of Barkley, Lukaku, Deulofeu, Mirallas, Baines, Jagielka, Coleman, Stones and Lennon and being expected to not finish in the bottom half 2 seasons in a row. As well as having a net spend of 47.7m over 3 years. Brutal.

 

[bullensboy]

Hopefully the next manager won't be subject to the same ridiculously unrealistic expectations that Martinez has. Imagine having a squad only containing the likes of Barkley, Lukaku, Deulofeu, Mirallas, Baines, Jagielka, Coleman, Stones and Lennon and being expected to not finish in the bottom half 2 seasons in a row. As well as having a net spend of 47.7m over 3 years. Brutal.

ooof thats a compelling argument for dismissal right there

 

[MikeH72]

We'll let me put it this way: any future manager who has the confidence of the new owner to deliver must be judged much more critically than one who was in situ when he arrived. That's why I say that the new manager better hit the ground running or else he is fair game given that a manager not funded by Moshiri now walks the plank.

Translates to "you're not allowed to compare any future manager to Martinez because it will show just how much of a failure he was"

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

What would worry me if he stays on as manager would be how we'd do without a 15-20 goal a season striker

I think there's no doubt that Lukaku's goals have been the difference this season between us finishing where we are or down in the relegation zone
If Martinez does stay on, I think for sure that Lukaku is off, and probably a few other players as well. Lukaku is probably off regardless to be fair
Without Lukaku's goals, and Martinez's continued horrific defensive tactics, I'd be genuinely worried that we'd be close to getting sucked into the relegation dog fight

Cups I'm not worried about, Martinez has that down. But when it comes to the League, we'd need to have at least one top striker combined with a top level goalkeeper, otherwise we'd be in a lot of danger

Other sides have already sussed out Martinez tactically. When it comes to tactics, he has nowhere else to go, so whether we survive or not will be soley down to personnel and who we can get in

If Martinez stays and manages to use the Moshiri money well, the best we could be looking at would be another mid table finish with a cup run. If he combines good buys with a top defensive coach, we might do even better

If he buys poorly, I can honestly see us going down, although I think even our board would sack him before that happened and get someone in who had a chance of rescuing the season

This is what worries me about keeping him on. If he could just develop a Plan B and get the help he needed at the defensive end of things, I wouldn't be so worried, but I fear he simply won't do that, which means relegation could honestly be on the table next season if he stays

You're never "too big" to go down, as Villa have shown

I understand that this is based a lot on "what if's?", but then again there's 5-6 years of history that show this to be a strong possibility. There's one season where he did well, and loads more where he was doing badly. I fear for us if he doesn't buy well in the summer

This is the comparison i dont get as Aston Villa have been on the cusp of relegation for years and this season they have finally gone down largely because they sold the spine of their team from last year and bought sub standard replacements. You dont get relegated due to a one off bad season it is years of decline so i dont think we would go down next season if Martinez remained but i do agree that there is a downward trend that he is responsible for.

 

[sixtynineseventy]

Professionally (in his own field) I would think Mr. Moshiri has achieved far more than RM has in his field which is why he can buy and sell him and hopefully sack him very soon.

 

[MikeH72]

Isnt that a good thing?

We have had 14 years of nothing, 21 years without any cup in the cabinet.

Isn't it good that the expectations are going to grow quite a bit? If we fail, then we fail. Least we are having a go for the first time in 30 years.

Dave hates that thought. He wants us to stay plucky little mid table Everton buzzing over getting to two semi finals. Can't stand the thought of us progressing under a manager that isn't Roberto Martinez