Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Lanolin]

Thanks mate. I think @davek key point is a fair one. It is unfair that just because a new owner come sin with loads of money we discard a manager because he doesn't reach a perceived set of objectives that come with the new investment.

My only counter point though, would be that I simply don't think he'd have been given the job in the first place had the investment come. It is unfair if he doesn't get the chance to spend 150 million, but if 150 million was available to spend when we appointed him he simply wouldn't have done enough to earn the right to manage such a club. For me it is the same argument against Moyes. He did a good job under the parameters we existed under, but that doesn't automatically mean you are best qualified to spend more money.

There is undoubtedly a ruthlessness associated with this, and it is unfair. In all honesty for the resources he's spent (9th in the league) his performance with two semi finals is ok. The same as Moyes constantly finishing in the top 8 and winning nothing was ok. under Kenwright I was resigned to having a manager who may "fluke" us a cup even if it meant messing up the league form. The problem is, that why were the expectations and pressure on the managers so low?

That is an important question to answer. I think as fans we are starting to get answers now, and while some behaviour I am uncomfortable with I can't hide away from the wider point of what is happening. Kenwright has cultivated Everton in the image of a caring, community driven, fair club that don't sack managers very often and ultimately don't compete to win trophies in any serious sense. A lot of Evertonians are very proud of that and unfortunately in any change sometimes it's not just bad bits that are replaced but sometimes some good bits go too.

However we need to remember who we are. We are the club that sacked a manager in the taxi for finishing 5th. A club that dropped Alex Young when to build a younger side to win the league. Who dropped and sold a title winning defender Mountfield to get in Watson. Who moved on Andy Gray because Lineker became available. A club that moved Dixie Dean on to get Tommy Lawton in. The club that sent their record appearance player out on loan to Stoke and didn't give him a send off in his final season.

The club Kenwright wants to turn us into has no resemblance to what went before and Evertonians have to re-learn their history. Most of the decisions above were taken by Evertonians we all love, Kendall, Moores etc. You don't win things without ruthlessness. If it was good enough for Mountfield, Grey, Kendall, Young, Dean, Southall the it surely has to be right for Martinez too?

The biggest thing any of us possess is hope. Kenwright did a good job of killing that hope and convincing us the best we could do was managers from the Lancashire boundary. That nobody was interested in us, that we are plucky little Everton. The "trying that counts" team. Davek may well say that it is entitlement but I don't think that's true. I think it says a lot for how deep the Kenwright rot has set in the minds of some fans that holding people to account, and behaving as we always had done as a club before Kenwright arrived is seen as entitlement.

This summer needs to be a big statement. I cannot believe that pundits and journalists treat Everton like Stoke or Southampton. You have radio 5 live saying Koeman will only leave Southampton to go to a "big club". You've got Mark Warbutton saying he wouldn't go to Everton. Keys suggesting Moyes had Hughes. Nobody believes anything has changed. This summer is our opportunity to show otherwise. I can't see how we can do that without ridding ourselves of the manager too.

Really good post, but I don't agree with the bit in bold.

For me, any manager coming in to a club like Everton is aware that they will be expected to overachieve. It will have been part of the interview he had, and I know somebody yesterday posted a quote made at his unveiling in which Kenwright stated that they did not expect standards to drop. I think finishing 9th would be slightly disappointing, but acceptable on the basis of budgets, but successive finishes below our budget level is a failure in my book, and I suspect the board's book too. I think matching our position in the wage table is the very least expected of an Everton manager, ideally substantially more.

 

[Toffeeslam]

Still nearly 5% of the vote wants to keep RM, amazing. I know many point to the first season of 72 points and laud RM because of that. yes it was very good and credit was given to RM for that season. But in the last four games of that season we lost 3 of them if memory serves me right thus losing the CL spot. (perhaps that was setting the tone for the start of the next season which was not great)

So credit and applause was given to RM for that first season. But how is it he is not given credit for the last two dismal season and this one yet to finish. Many folk point to a record for Everton of 72 points but those same folk keep quiet about the record 5 home wins in a season!!!!!
It would seem it is the old tale of picking and choosing those bits that are liked and ignore the bad bits.

That 1st season was largely with a Moyes team.

Once Martinez starting to put his stamp on the team it all started to go pair shaped from day one of his second season.

DaveK and the rest advocating his continued employment must really love the SkyBet Championship because the trends suggest with Roberto in charge that's exactly where we will end up.

There is precedence there with Wigan

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

I'm not disagreeing with that, these derby performances have been worse.

But that is the thing, that's the bar we are now setting, what is the worse performances? Speaks volumes that you could discuss about whether the moyes one was as bad or not when realistically the discussion should not be focused on derby defeats. A sad indicator of the past 14 years when you can only pick on one hand the derby wins and measure up defeats.

Oh I agree with that. I just don't think you can use "Martinez hasn't won a derby 3-0 due to a lack of time at the helm" and not mention that what he HAS managed in that short space is to oversee the two worst performances in that fixture in recent memory

 

[Toffeelover]

That 1st season was largely with a Moyes team.

Once Martinez starting to put his stamp on the team it all started to go pair shaped from day one of his second season.

DaveK and the rest advocating his continued employment must really love the SkyBet Championship because the trends suggest with Roberto in charge that's exactly where we will end up.

There is precedence there with Wigan

I agree with that and RM took it apart.

 

[Ashtonian]

Oh I agree with that. I just don't think you can use "Martinez hasn't won a derby 3-0 due to a lack of time at the helm" and not mention that what he HAS managed in that short space is to oversee the two worst performances in that fixture in recent memory

Been plenty of oppertunities to win derbies over the past 3 years. The team just hasn't turned up for them. the 1-1 this season=poor, the draws last season= poor, especially the second one. the 3-3 in the first year? Couldn't hang onto the win (shockingly ominous!).

 

[EFCPaul]

I'm convinced that 5% that want him to stay is just that Neil Steele (@thestaveros) voting over and over again. We all don't understand football, he does.

 

[welshtoffee]

Got to go at the end of the season, would be better sooner . Awful manager with a bizarre thought in his head that he is actually doing a fine job...OUT !!!!!

 

[Dymak]

He's an utterly crap manager that ruins teams and causes untold damage to football clubs. He will struggle to find another job once he is sacked by Everton.

 

[LocalNative]

I wonder if we all continue repeating the same thing on here for the next two weeks will it do any good?

 

[catcherintherye]

Really good post, but I don't agree with the bit in bold.

For me, any manager coming in to a club like Everton is aware that they will be expected to overachieve. It will have been part of the interview he had, and I know somebody yesterday posted a quote made at his unveiling in which Kenwright stated that they did not expect standards to drop. I think finishing 9th would be slightly disappointing, but acceptable on the basis of budgets, but successive finishes below our budget level is a failure in my book, and I suspect the board's book too. I think matching our position in the wage table is the very least expected of an Everton manager, ideally substantially more.

That is a fair point. All I'd say though is there is a difference between actions and words. If Kenwright doesn't expect standards to drop, what will he do to ensure that is the case? In the 18 months he was here it was hard to imagine a critical word he had given to Martinez when he wasn't finishing where presumably he didn't want the standards to drop too?

I think we are moving to a period now, where people, managers, players, coaches will be held accountable. Not just with catchphrases at press conferences but in concrete actions. The first should be getting a new manager. The next should be a top manager coming in. After that it should be made clear to any player;
1) You will be expected to compete for trophies
2) Anyone who gets sold gets sold on our terms
3) Anyone who wants to leave should let it be known.

No more strolling around half baked.

 

[catcherintherye]

Considering that in the last season we have finished in the bottom half of the table with a dismal record of performance which got worst this season, is it not surprising we may have difficulty getting a new manager of the calibre we want to be successful. First season counts for nought (that is history) as do the two cup runs ( which basically were against poor opposition).

No and I think that's the reason why this summer is critical. Moshirir has to make it clear whats happened is not whats going to continue on his watch.

 

[arminisgod]

I agree with that and RM took it apart.

'largely' is going over the top.

Barry, Stones, Mccarthy, Delefeou, Lukaku, Barkley were not Moyes players.

 

[John Osters Love Child]

bringing in a top class manager is our only chance of keeping Rom and Stones. Hopefully, if as Esk says Roberto has been made aware he won't be here next year those top players have been made aware too.

 

[bullensboy]

bringing in a top class manager is our only chance of keeping Rom and Stones. Hopefully, if as Esk says Roberto has been made aware he won't be here next year those top players have been made aware too.

Im not knocking Esk at all, but he did say RM would probably be gone by last Saturday.

Like I say, not knocking and I realise things change

 

[Omarza]

this is the thing that baffles me most, hes supposed to be a disciple of guardiola, possesion football blah blah but those teams are among the hardest working and fittest you'll ever see. they see it as an insult for the opposition to have the ball. everton under martinez are lazy, unfit and let the oppostion whaltz through them to shoot at will. hes a strange man.

I wrote before that in my opinion we are at the brink of success but that I think fitness is our main problem. Below is an article I read in 2015 which I think many might have read but not realized the importance of what was said regarding fitness. Below the article I will mention what exactly does fitness affect and looking at that it in a way summarizes what went wrong. Once again in my opinion...

Extract from this article in February 2015 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...staff-left-club-turned-sour-Everton-boss.html

Some point to a deeper problem, however: to the impact the departure of certain staff has had on dressing room, and club, morale.

In that same interview last year, Martinez said ‘he wanted to change things without losing anything’ in recognition of the club Moyes had so successfully created.

But some changes have been regarded by some as heavy losses. Danny Donachie resigned as head of medicine in December, while conditioning coach Steve Tashjian left in the summer and another fitness coach, Dave Billows, before that.

There is nothing new in a manager bringing in his own staff but these three particular members of the backroom staff were regarded by many as the oil in the machine. ‘They were very popular with the players, and trusted,’ said one dressing room source. ‘They would keep the ship sailing.’

A physiotherapist who had been at Goodison Park for more than a decade, Donachie is the son of former assistant manager Willie and regarded as something of an innovator when it comes to the management of injuries. But it seems he may have clashed with Martinez, himself a qualified physiotherapist, over the treatment of injuries, which may have led to his departure.

Now lets have a quick look in what Fitness literally affects in sports...

• A players ability to change position of their body quickly and with control, which also in turn helps them to dodge their opponents.
• A players balance where they can better retain their centre of mass above the base of support. This also prevents players from falling over at speed.
• It improves self-confidence giving you a desire to challenge your limits
• It improves co-ordination where players need to move more than one body part together, helping players to move smoothly and quickly and improves ball control.
• The fitter you are the more mentally alert you are resulting in fewer mistakes made and at the same time bringing out better decision making at the spur of the moment
• It affects the players ability to use their strength at speed as well as their overall speed and reaction times.
• The fitter you are the more one tends to want to be involved in physical challenges and work harder for the team, resulting in team players
• It affects how quickly players can move into position or get away from opponents

Thus its not just how quickly a player tires on the pitch BUT affects their overall performance right from the start. We talk about lazy players not being committed BUT when you look at what fitness literally affects in a sports person one in a way can understand why we are looking the way we are at the moment. I am still convinced that our MAJOR problem in regressing is due to fitness, not necessarily our playing tactics.

When Martinez took over from Moyes the team was fit...probably one of the fittest in the league and thus in my opinion why we performed well in that first season. We then lost our key fitness and conditioning coaches/staff...which some referred to as the oil in the machine. Since then we started declining in form, determination, dedication...and all that can be related back to those items mentioned above.

I might be wrong once again but I still believe that is the key/main reasons why we are a shadow of the team we were in 2013. The problem is that it seems that Martinez is not addressing this issue and that concerns me the most and that's why I feel its time for a new manager. He talks about his style and spending in the transfer market etc BUT never mentions anything about where the problem are truly lying. That is also why Niasse is what he is at the moment and I think get him properly fit (which he should have been) we might see a different Niasse.

I do think he is a nice person and that his way of playing will be successful...BUT not until he seriously addresses our fitness issues. IF Martinez will address these issues I would keep him for another season and see what happens BUT unfortunately it seems he is only focused on his playing style and strengthening the team...not addressing our fitness issues which in turn affects the above mentioned points and in turn our overall performance.