Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[bluestevon]

You are going about this the wrooooooooooooong way mate

Mate i know exactly what snides is doing, seen him on here long enough to know his MO really

 

[bluestevon]

I think you were trying to apologise but failing miserably?

Possibly so, will come to me what on earth my point was at some time or other, probably when i'm far enough away from a net signal that i can't communicate it, then will forget by the time i am

 

[ToffeeDan]

Dier was on loan, pretty sure at the time we had limited money to actually sign him.

There was no agreement in place for us to sign Dier - he was only loaned to us for experience - at U21 level only - and then to go back to Portugal - so we were never in a position to sign him.

 

[UpperLeftBlue]

1-5 is the top part of the table. 6-15 is the middle of the table. 16-20 is the bottom of the table. Maybe that's just me.

I think the chances of us finishing in the top part of the table next year (being better than average) under Moyes or Martinez would be extremely low. I hope both are in the past and we get a proven winner to manage the club.

you are right that 6-15 is the middle of the table. However if you are trying to assert that finishing anywhere in that range deserves the same amount of respect you're dead wrong. 6th place usually gets a Europa spot, while 15th probably saw you in the relegation conversation through early spring. Looking over the last 5 years' tables 6th place is usually on 60-65 points while 15th is 38-43. So, ~20 more points, strong potential of Europa and roughly 15 million more in prize money and somehow it still deserves the ignominious title "mid-table." Maybe the Great Lemon has said this drivel enough times that people are starting to believe it, but it needs to stop. It is the worst justification for Martinez that I have heard. Sorry if that wasn't what you intended to say.

 

[Sentinel]

Chill mate, it was tongue in cheek ffs!

Ok mate. I do have a sense of humor. I think I lost it though after I saw Klopp and Kopites laughing at us in the Derby.

 

[TheCount]

you are right that 6-15 is the middle of the table. However if you are trying to assert that finishing anywhere in that range deserves the same amount of respect you're dead wrong. 6th place usually gets a Europa spot, while 15th probably saw you in the relegation conversation through early spring. Looking over the last 5 years' tables 6th place is usually on 60-65 points while 15th is 38-43. So, ~20 more points, strong potential of Europa and roughly 15 million more in prize money and somehow it still deserves the ignominious title "mid-table." Maybe the Great Lemon has said this drivel enough times that people are starting to believe it, but it needs to stop. It is the worst justification for Martinez that I have heard. Sorry if that wasn't what you intended to say.

I can't see where I've asserted that point. I said an average finish of just below 6th vs 9th isn't a massive decline. Just a decline.

I didn't say there wasn't a difference between the bottom of mid table and the top. Just that that is what I've always thought of as mid-table. Like you're just making up the numbers. Maybe 7-14 would be more accurate. Just different grades of average.

 

[Zatara]

Come on mate this is a ridiculously biased view. The points around Coleman and Baines are bizarre. Lescott was having a stormer at left back, hence Baines bided his time, once he won his spot though he was a regular. Coleman started out at RB for us but was actually one of our quickest players for a while so to help the team Moyes tried him at RW. He moved back the season after and never lost his spot. By the end of his tenure they were two of the best full backs in the league.

Osman Hibbert Rooney Anichebe Vaughan Rodwell Barkley all got given significant senior time under Moyes considering how young they were when he gave them debuts (not Osman and Hibbert obviously)

He gave debuts to a whole succession of kids who weren't good enough. As of yet not one player has gone on to do anything better than Everton. Dier we simply couldn't afford, we sent him back to Lisbon and then Spurs eventually bought him. He's had his breakthrough season now which is how many years after we sent him back? Mustafi was a bad call fair enough, but again he's only coming to prominence in the last few years, Moyes was expected to just give him a first team spot years before that though.

Martinez could have played far more kids. The whole 'who is ready' excuse for Roberto which is never applied to Moyes is ridiculous.

Who could martinez have played more in his first two seasons?

Moyes had 11 years and did play young lads but my point is that he was very careful with defenders and wouldnt play young ones...

i dont think moyes had many good ones come through in 11 years and our crop now will be next season.

 

[Zatara]

Duffy

Forgot him. Came in did well i think then dropped for older players and not seen for ages a bit like ribles last season unless im forgetting?

 

[UpperLeftBlue]

I can't see where I've asserted that point. I said an average finish of just below 6th vs 9th isn't a massive decline. Just a decline.

I didn't say there wasn't a difference between the bottom of mid table and the top. Just that that is what I've always thought of as mid-table. Like you're just making up the numbers. Maybe 7-14 would be more accurate. Just different grades of average.

Fair enough. Just seeing you give three zones of the tables top, mid and bottom made it seem as though you see a Moyes range finish on par with a Martinez range finish. I just disagree that you could lump together 6-15 or 7-14. There is usually a pretty large gap in points and a shift to negative GD somewhere around 8-10th. Maybe I'm making something out of nothing, but I just can't stand to see Martinez's bottom half finishes equated to Moyes' 5-8th. As jaded as we were about another 7th place trophy, I'd much rather that than another 11th place ribbon.

 

[RaleighBlue]

Fair enough. Just seeing you give three zones of the tables top, mid and bottom made it seem as though you see a Moyes range finish on par with a Martinez range finish. I just disagree that you could lump together 6-15 or 7-14. There is usually a pretty large gap in points and a shift to negative GD somewhere around 8-10th. Maybe I'm making something out of nothing, but I just can't stand to see Martinez's bottom half finishes equated to Moyes' 5-8th. As jaded as we were about another 7th place trophy, I'd much rather that than another 11th place ribbon.

Eh. Neither get you anything really. Moyes was better than Martinez, but let's not pretend the fall from grace was as bad as Ferguson -> Moyes was for Utd.

We finished 6th-8th a lot in the end under Moyes. Better? Sure. Good? Nah. If we finish 15th, I think there is a point that the drop has been precipitous, but the truth is we were never doing well enough - Moyes just kept it close enough to decent to keep people happy and Martinez fell off the razor's edge. And we got a billionaire, and the football is a bit poo, and Leicester just won the league (ffs) waking us all up to the fact that we've not been good enough for yonks. Martinez isn't good enough. He also happens to be the manager at the time we realized that midtable just isn't good enough.

 

[Blue Cheese]

Duffy lol. Martinez OUT

 

[Mayz]

Eh. Neither get you anything really. Moyes was better than Martinez, but let's not pretend the fall from grace was as bad as Ferguson -> Moyes was for Utd.

We finished 6th-8th a lot in the end under Moyes. Better? Sure. Good? Nah. If we finish 15th, I think there is a point that the drop has been precipitous, but the truth is we were never doing well enough - Moyes just kept it close enough to decent to keep people happy and Martinez fell off the razor's edge. And we got a billionaire, and the football is a bit poo, and Leicester just won the league (ffs) waking us all up to the fact that we've not been good enough for yonks. Martinez isn't good enough. He also happens to be the manager at the time we realized that midtable just isn't good enough.

I see what you've done with the picture there, had me fooled for a min.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Who could martinez have played more in his first two seasons?

Moyes had 11 years and did play young lads but my point is that he was very careful with defenders and wouldnt play young ones...

i dont think moyes had many good ones come through in 11 years and our crop now will be next season.

You barely see anyone playing teenage centrebacks in the prem. Stones is an absolute exception because he is so good. Fergie wouldn't even give Pique a game. Dier didn't get many games st CB for Spurs before he was moved into midfield. Moyes wasn't in the minority for wanting experienced top class centrebacks. We are not a development school but a club supposedly with ambitions to compete at the top of the premier league.

As for Martinez, watching games with Cleverley McCarthy or Lennon at RB was painful, are we seriously saying that Holgate Pennington or Connely couldn't have done a job?

Ditto Barry in 14/15 getting flogged week in week out three games a week. Could Ledson Davies or Walsh not have stepped in even off the bench for cameos to relieve the burden a bit?

Dowell has had a few injuries but was one of our better players in pre season. When this season started though Arouna Kone a 33 year old striker is playing on one wing and Cleverley a central mid is on the other.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Multiple posters using Davek's avatars are really confusing.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Multiple posters using Davek's avatars are really confusing.

I know!!!

I've been away from here a couple of days and haven't a clue what's going on lol

I've tried to respond to him about 10 times in the last 10 mins only to realise at the very last minute it's not even him. So if on the off chance I repond to anyone thinking they are Dave, I apologise in advance.