Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

jceverton · March 18, 2016

davek said:
Hold on, two of the five late collapses we've had were in time added on to time added on! Not much of an explanation for those two. Also, the West Ham collapse came after playing with 10 men for a huge chunk of the game.

The fitness indicator you point to is bogus as a barometer for us, as we dont usually play a pressing game. Teams that do naturally clock more KM per match per player.

And yet that doesn't stack up historically. His first season here he was hailed for his astute subs during games. So it's not a matter of saying it's something missing from his arsenal.

The point I made about lack of fitness was that the longer into the game you were then the more lack of fitness tells on your ability to concentrate. So goals conceded at the end of games completely fits with that point, so how you can then dismiss it on goals conceded in extra time is not logical! So distance covered by us in a game isn't relevant to our fitness because we play a possession game and not a pressing game. So what are we doing when we don't have the ball? We have an average of 51% possession this season compared to Spurs who have 54% possession. So Spurs keep the ball more than us and cover more distance in a game. That's because their fitter and they work harder.

The subs argument - I don't recall that many subs in the game in his first season that had a major impact on a game from a tactical point of view. Delofeu in the Derby is the one that sticks out, but the point still stands because he hasn't got the ability to do this at any consistent level as demonstrated by the last few years.

mkrudden · March 18, 2016

smileychap said:
Why would we not judge Martinez before the summer... FA Cup or declining league position not sufficient to make a call?

I'm not being a bell mate but over the course of the last few pages I've laid out my opinion. I would gladly repeat it but I'm not that important so will just come across as dead boring.
Give it a quick glance and we can then have a proper ol debate over Martinez if you want before I crack on the new season of Daredevil. Proper tv (off topic - self warns)

mkrudden · March 18, 2016

davek said:
Hold on, two of the five late collapses we've had were in time added on to time added on! Not much of an explanation for those two. Also, the West Ham collapse came after playing with 10 men for a huge chunk of the game.

The fitness indicator you point to is bogus as a barometer for us, as we dont usually play a pressing game. Teams that do naturally clock more KM per match per player.

And yet that doesn't stack up historically. His first season here he was hailed for his astute subs during games. So it's not a matter of saying it's something missing from his arsenal.

We don't press high because we've not got that playmaker who, when the ball is nicked in that final third, can thread a ball through the eye of a needle.
Martinez knows we need to counter so the press comes when they enter our half.
Watch that change if we get Yarmowho or someone like that in the summer.

davek · March 18, 2016

jceverton said:
The point I made about lack of fitness was that the longer into the game you were then the more lack of fitness tells on your ability to concentrate. So goals conceded at the end of games completely fits with that point, so how you can then dismiss it on goals conceded in extra time is not logical!

When it's time added on to time added on, the reason for conceding is less about fitness than psychology. Players get anxious and flap. Twas ever thus

jceverton said:
So distance covered by us in a game isn't relevant to our fitness because we play a possession game and not a pressing game. So what are we doing when we don't have the ball? We have an average of 51% possession this season compared to Spurs who have 54% possession. So Spurs keep the ball more than us and cover more distance in a game. That's because their fitter and they work harder.

Up to date possession figures suggest we're about 8th or 9th in terms of playing with the ball. But your figures on distance run are hopelessly flawed as they use stats from between August to October. What is the current state of play on that? You're assuming an awful lot here about lack of fitness from stats that are 5 months old!

jceverton said:
The subs argument - I don't recall that many subs in the game in his first season that had a major impact on a game from a tactical point of view. Delofeu in the Derby is the one that sticks out, but the point still stands because he hasn't got the ability to do this at any consistent level as demonstrated by the last few years.

Well I recall a lot of post match reports peppered with commentary that his personnel and formation changes in-game were winning us games. So maybe we can trade one perception off there against the other (though I feel sure most would agree that was the general biew in his first season here).

davek · March 18, 2016

mkrudden said:
We don't press high because we've not got that playmaker who, when the ball is nicked in that final third, can thread a ball through the eye of a needle.
Martinez knows we need to counter so the press comes when they enter our half.
Watch that change if we get Yarmowho or someone like that in the summer.

We also have Lukaku and not a Vardy type. Lukaku isn't ever fitting into a style of play where he's the first line of defence. That's just a trade off you make when you buy a player like Lukaku and play to his strengths.

Overall, I do think we like to bring teams onto us and hit hard in the spaces they leave in behind themselves. It's pretty much like coiling a spring back and then letting it go when the opposition breaks down. We favour that over pressing high up the pitch. And to be fair, we have the sort of players that work that system as well as any team can. It's one of the reasons we'll batter West Ham at Wembley if we play them. On that pitch we'll cause a lot of damage.

mkrudden · March 18, 2016

davek said:
We also have Lukaku and not a Vardy type. Lukaku isn't ever fitting into a style of play where he's the first line of defence. That's just a trade off you make when you buy a player like Lukaku and play to his strengths.

Overall, I do think we like to bring teams onto us and hit hard in the spaces they leave in behind themselves. It's pretty much like coiling a spring back and then letting it go when the opposition breaks down. We favour that over pressing high up the pitch. And to be fair, we have the sort of players that work that system as well as any team can. It's one of the reasons we'll batter West Ham at Wembley if we play them. On that pitch we'll cause a lot of damage.

100% agree.

Khalekan · March 18, 2016

mkrudden said:
Still can't understand anyone who says we've "failed" for the last two seasons.

Failed at developing our young players? Ie Lukaku into an all-round world class CF? Barkley into one of the most game-affecting players in the league?

Failed at bringing in new players, in line with the previous business model (young, raw players who need developing - see above)?

Failed at tying down our good players to long contracts? Players leave every football club, but if they leave us they never leave on the cheap

Failed at developing a style of play which is exciting, fresh, ambitious?

Failed to win trophies? So like every year since 1995 and under a variety of managers.

Failed to qualify for europe? Nope, we did that. In line to do it again.

Failed to show what the aim is to consistently achieve when his players are playing at their best? Nope. He's clearly shown what he can produce in his first season.

He has made mistakes. Not this summer gone, the summer before, he failed to replace the pace missing when Deulofeu left. Impact pace. Atsu obviously didn't come up trumps. Same with replacing Distin.

This year he kept too much faith in Howard who he was willing to return to form.

None of the mistakes he has made however, not even the supposed failure of last year's league standing nor the current position outweigh (or even come close) to the positives he has brought to the club and team. We all expect more because he has drilled it into us that we should expect more. A far cry from the 11 years previous and the knife/gun fights.

He deserves time and patience. Shame more aren't willing to give it him.

He failed last season.....no doubt.

The abiding memory of last season is Black December and the early months of 2015.

The most awful football I have watched at The Park in many a day......with results to match.

But that was then......this is now.

This season is not ŷet over so he cannot ŷet be judged a failure......but the football has at least been entertaining and exciting.

Win the Cup and he enters the Hall of Fame.

Get us firing in league and we make next season's Europa League it would be hard to call it failure.

ianefc · March 18, 2016

OUT
Unless he wins the FA Cup

Goat · March 18, 2016

“I’ve been saying it for weeks – we’ve been underperforming this season. You don’t need to lie, that’s the truth. Results? It has been three years of underperforming. As bad as it sounds, it is the truth.

“Look at the players we have. We have 10 games to go, the semi-final of the Cup, just go for it boys. We need to go and start winning games, because we cannot continue like we are."

The Equaliser · March 18, 2016

ianefc said:
OUT
Unless he wins the FA Cup

Back with a vengeance.

kithnou · March 18, 2016

MoutsGoat said:
“I’ve been saying it for weeks – we’ve been underperforming this season. You don’t need to lie, that’s the truth. Results? It has been three years of underperforming. As bad as it sounds, it is the truth.

“Look at the players we have. We have 10 games to go, the semi-final of the Cup, just go for it boys. We need to go and start winning games, because we cannot continue like we are."

Was about to post that....

Stones will hand in a transfer request first opportunity I think we all believe?
Rom's latest article looks like he is off...

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/romelu-lukaku.77973/page-348#post-4305203

So all the developing something with young guns looks like blowing up in his face? Results do matter. Hmmm. Interesting concept. Winning to retain key footballers...

moyes cardy · March 18, 2016

davek said:
We also have Lukaku and not a Vardy type. Lukaku isn't ever fitting into a style of play where he's the first line of defence. That's just a trade off you make when you buy a player like Lukaku and play to his strengths.

Overall, I do think we like to bring teams onto us and hit hard in the spaces they leave in behind themselves. It's pretty much like coiling a spring back and then letting it go when the opposition breaks down. We favour that over pressing high up the pitch. And to be fair, we have the sort of players that work that system as well as any team can. It's one of the reasons we'll batter West Ham at Wembley if we play them. On that pitch we'll cause a lot of damage.

An educated smart post.

moyes cardy · March 18, 2016

kithnou said:
Was about to post that....

Stones will hand in a transfer request first opportunity I think we all believe?
Rom's latest article looks like he is off...

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/romelu-lukaku.77973/page-348#post-4305203

So all the developing something with young guns looks like blowing up in his face? Results do matter. Hmmm. Interesting concept. Winning to retain key footballers...

no one disagrees but this is a different Everton one with money that can resist approach. Naturally we have to next season perform to top 4 but don't be naive and believe that players won't stay if the cash rewards are there.