Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Goat]

And Kante, he's boss.

Hes just James McCarthy.

 

[The Esk]

The skills to make a top four side generally come with bags of money too. Leicester's season cuts across that, but it is a freak occurrence and represents the exception that proves the rule.

But, leaving aside the skill set argument, how is it that this Everton manager like no other is tasked (under pain of dismissal) with the securing of a CL spot? This is where all reason is left behind. Why does Martinez (a man who's made the best fist of things in terms of a CL type total) have to be found wanting to the point where finishing in a midtable position with a chance of silverware becomes a point of no return for you?

Whenever have you held those exacting standards to any other Everton manager?

It's a fair question Dave, but relatively easy to answer.

It is widely accepted that this group of players is the most talented group at Everton's disposal since the mid 1980's. Martinez of course must take credit for this, I acknowledge that totally.

Secondly this season we have seen Manchester City, United, Chelsea and Arsenal (perhaps to a lesser amount) underperformance and allow Leicester, Spurs and West Ham to challenge at levels beyond what you might expect their 'natural' position might be. The common factor amongst these three clubs is that they each have a management team which through tactical ability, and the ability to prepare and instil belief in their teams have created teams performing beyond their expected abilities.

However at Everton the absolute reverse has happened. Far from being greater than the sum of our parts we've become less than the sum of our parts. Tactically we are moribund and devoid of an ability to change the course of games. Mentally we are completely shot. We have no expectation of success on the pitch and we have become a "soft touch" - not a characteristic you'd ever expect to hear from Everton.

All of the above plus what will become rapidly very changed expectations of how we define success means Martinez' position is untenable. For all his good intent, and I think he's a deeply honourable man, he does not possess the necessary skills and therefore by the end of the season I believe he and his team will be released - with just cause.

 

[kithnou]

Hes just James McCarthy.

don't start me mate

 

[DrEFC]

Hes just James McCarthy.

Think he's been more influential, like a first season McCarthy. Our redfaced Celt has been ineffective this year.

 

[Goat]

It's a fair question Dave, but relatively easy to answer.

It is widely accepted that this group of players is the most talented group at Everton's disposal since the mid 1980's. Martinez of course must take credit for this, I acknowledge that totally.

Secondly this season we have seen Manchester City, United, Chelsea and Arsenal (perhaps to a lesser amount) underperformance and allow Leicester, Spurs and West Ham to challenge at levels beyond what you might expect their 'natural' position might be. The common factor amongst these three clubs is that they each have a management team which through tactical ability, and the ability to prepare and instil belief in their teams have created teams performing beyond their expected abilities.

However at Everton the absolute reverse has happened. Far from being greater than the sum of our parts we've become less than the sum of our parts. Tactically we are moribund and devoid of an a ility to change the course of games. Mentally we are completely shot. We have no expectation of success on the pitch and we have become a "soft touch" - not a characteristic you'd ever expect to hear from Everton.

All of the above plus what will become rapidly very changed expectations of how we define success means Martinez' position is untenable. For all his good intent, and I think he's a deeply honourable man, he does not possess the necessary skills and therefore by the end of the season I believe he and his team will be released - with just cause.

Totally agree.

But you missed a few chances to call him El Coco and David prefers David.

 

[wainy]

The skills to make a top four side generally come with bags of money too. Leicester's season cuts across that, but it is a freak occurrence and represents the exception that proves the rule.

But, leaving aside the skill set argument, how is it that this Everton manager like no other is tasked (under pain of dismissal) with the securing of a CL spot? This is where all reason is left behind. Why does Martinez (a man who's made the best fist of things in terms of a CL type total) have to be found wanting to the point where finishing in a midtable position with a chance of silverware becomes a point of no return for you?

Whenever have you held those exacting standards to any other Everton manager?

I do believe Roberto himself said that he would get Everton in the CL. So that's what I measure him against. We had a brilliant first season, no question. But what we are seeing now is disgraceful, even under Walter Smith we never had a home record like this. I'll be honest I've wanted the man gone since Hull away on new years day last season. There have been more than a handful of those performances since.

 

[Goat]

Think he's been more influential, like a first season McCarthy. Our redfaced Celt has been ineffective this year.

The player James McCarthy would have become with a proper Manager then.

 

[dandydan]

So what is it this season @davek ?

@chicoazul you got some competition here

 

[kithnou]

All of the above plus what will become rapidly very changed expectations of how we define success means Martinez' position is untenable. For all his good intent, and I think he's a deeply honourable man, he does not possess the necessary skills and therefore by the end of the season I believe he and his team will be released - with just cause.

I liked the last paragraph. I hope that Mr Moshiri has the fortitude the gushing BK clearly does not possess (based on last week's pathetic post match video display) to see that.

 

[blulouie]

It is tho mate.

Go through it, player for player, but save yourself the trouble of stopping when you get past Vardy and Mahrez.

I'd start with Schmeichel meself like.

Drinkwater has been class .

Kante is better than any of our midfield.

Huth has been better than any of our Centre backs....so has Morgan.

so no we dont have a superior squad than them.

 

[jceverton]

There's the Moyes magic bean theory: that he sprinkled them in the penalty area before he left and defensive acumen was retained for 12 months until the spell wore off...if that's the case he should have saved a couple of bags for Old Trafford.

If you flip that argument and say the good defensive record in his first season had nothing to do with Moyes then why has Martinez been unable to replicate it in the following 2 seasons?

 

[maccavennie]

It's a fair question Dave, but relatively easy to answer.

It is widely accepted that this group of players is the most talented group at Everton's disposal since the mid 1980's. Martinez of course must take credit for this, I acknowledge that totally.

Secondly this season we have seen Manchester City, United, Chelsea and Arsenal (perhaps to a lesser amount) underperformance and allow Leicester, Spurs and West Ham to challenge at levels beyond what you might expect their 'natural' position might be. The common factor amongst these three clubs is that they each have a management team which through tactical ability, and the ability to prepare and instil belief in their teams have created teams performing beyond their expected abilities.

However at Everton the absolute reverse has happened. Far from being greater than the sum of our parts we've become less than the sum of our parts. Tactically we are moribund and devoid of an ability to change the course of games. Mentally we are completely shot. We have no expectation of success on the pitch and we have become a "soft touch" - not a characteristic you'd ever expect to hear from Everton.

All of the above plus what will become rapidly very changed expectations of how we define success means Martinez' position is untenable. For all his good intent, and I think he's a deeply honourable man, he does not possess the necessary skills and therefore by the end of the season I believe he and his team will be released - with just cause.

Absolutely correct. His position has become untenable, it's blatantly obvious and undeniable that he should be relieved of his duties sooner rather than later.

 

[bluestevon]

I don't want Martinez to change his ways and his philosophy. He tries to win games, he attacks and goes for it. Being born in the 90s, the majority of Everton I've watched has been under Moyes which is why I'm comparing them. Every game we play, I'm confident we can win, we can go and score goals. Under Moyes that was never the case, even when he had a good squad in his last few years.

The Europa League last season was great, the toughest group of the tournament and we pissed it. Battered Wolfsburg, who are CL quarter finalists now, home and away. Kiev was a nightmare where they scored two wonder goals that sent them through.

And the potential you're talking about.. look at the difference between Lukaku and Barkley between now and Martinez's first season, huge difference. Stones has also improved, Deulofeu aswell. Martinez isn't perfect as if he had a good defence then there would be no debate, let's just hope that he sorts what needs to be sorting out in the summer if he stays.

Yes because before Martinez arrived all 4 of thos eplayers where junk and not rated at all...

Stones i will give him a lot of credit for bringing along fast - but the natural talent was plain from the start, and it can be argued that by not coaching him properly he is now well regressing as a defender
Lukaku - yup hardly like he banged in 16 league goals including a hat trick at old trafford for west brom before martinez - now who was that magnificient manager who had him at west brom - oh right it was pullis wasn't it
Barkley - most touted everton youngster since rooney
Deulofeu - was known as a potentially amazing talent and arguable if martinez has gotten anywhere near developing him to the player he could be, in fact the situation this season with him is mirroring his season with seville earily in fact

Kiev - wonder goals - errrm they absolutely mullered us to an embarresing degree in large part due to Martinez playing Alcaraz at cb - but according to the post game he played absolutely fine

 

[Goat]

I'd start with Schmeichel meself like.

Drinkwater has been class .

Kante is better than any of our midfield.

Huth has been better than any of our Centre backs....so has Morgan.

so no we dont have a superior squad than them.

But your basing all this on them performing at the top of their games and judging the Everton players on their current form.

Kante is better than Gibson, the rest of our midfield is far superior, same with Drinkwater and please dont try and tell me that Robert Huth has suddenly become Bobby Moore, hes an utter yarddog who is playing very well in a team that is performing way and above their standard.

 

[dandydan]

I think of it as a sliding scale, where the middle is perfect.

When Moyes left, we were too far to the left. Martinez came in and steered us to the right, and for a time we were in the perfect zone.

Unfortunately, Martinez then continued to steer right for two years and has subsequently actually put us so far right that even UKIP are jealous.

This UKIPer is getting nostalgic for moyes and his ability to hold a two goal lead. And I have been in the cult for some time but the West Ham game was enough for me.