Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[jazzy]

But I think if the players have 'lost faith' and can't now perform, then that does reflect badly on them.

I think it reflects worse on the manager

 

[Zatara]

Hey Zat - why do you think the full backs are as you say "frequently out of position "?
Do you not think it is how our manager sets the team up and tells them where to play?
Just a thought like

I think we have two very good attacking full backs in Coleman and Baines.....perfect for how we were setup under Moyes with them charging forward.

Now with a possession based game it seems they should be able to pass the ball and the team keep the ball rather than them naturally charging forward (which is fun to watch but not when they cant get back into position like baines last game).

Coleman and Baines i think cant play this system...Coleman cant play with Deulofeu but can play with Lennon....why is that? Baines also does better with Cleverley in front of him rather than an attacking player.....

We have a system where the wide players should be attacking yet are caught short as we dont have the full backs to defend behind them.

 

[bluewally]

I have the opposite view...

To be successful with this style every player needs to be able to keep the ball and pass it to a team mate. The only players who are weak at passing are Jagielka, Coleman and McCarthy (Baines notably has gone downhill head also).

However McCarthys job is to pass it simply to keep the ball...hes no busquets but i doubt he gives the ball away and can pass to Barry or Stones/Mori to rebuild attacks.

If we keep the ball well and are able to play it from the back then we wont be giving the ball away so much and can plah a higher defensive line....NONE of the defenders other than Stones and Mori (possibly also Oviedo and Galloway) can keep the ball at a level which is needed = sitting too deep in defence.

As per the centre backs especially, Mori and Stones are "on paper" the best partnership. However Mori is adapting in his first season and Stones has gone through his first bad patch as a 21 year old....Jagielka is a good defender but doesnt fit the style of play. In your EDIT you mentioned Jags saving Mori....i also saw Mori save Jags 2ce against arsenal.

What Martinez needs to do in the summer is bring in HIS OWN players....he hasnt done too badly with his signings for the first eleven so far.

I think we need defenders who can defend but also who can pass the ball from the back....if we had a Marcel Desailly type (Kalidou Koulibaly'Napoli') then he would tick the boxes for me.....as would a pair of full backs who defend first and dont get caught out of position so much.

These crosses coming in should be stopped at source and were cut down when oviedo was in for baines....i wonder if coleman had competition from a more defensive right back if these crosses wouldnt also stop from the right.

Arsenal and Barca dont have pure defensive players who cant distribute effectively (Jagielka) nor do they have full backs caught out of position so much as they have been playing so long as attacking full backs which we dont really need anymore.

But what about the fact that these players were more than good enough in Martinez first season.

Why are they suddenly not good enough?

Jagielka fitted the style of play then, Coleman was one of the best RB in the league, Baines one of the Best LB.

Unless you're saying Sylvain Distin was the greatest defender of all time and is irreplaceable then the fault for wrecking these players lies with the Manager and the coaches he brought in.

 

[Zatara]

You can bring in the best defenders in the world but if you don't coach them as a back 4 and set the team up in a cavalier manner you wont keep clean sheets

There are no other options in defence.

Martinez has only signed Mori and Galloway....hopefully in the summer he focuses on new defenders.3

 

[DrEFC]

I have the opposite view...

To be successful with this style every player needs to be able to keep the ball and pass it to a team mate. The only players who are weak at passing are Jagielka, Coleman and McCarthy (Baines notably has gone downhill head also).

However McCarthys job is to pass it simply to keep the ball...hes no busquets but i doubt he gives the ball away and can pass to Barry or Stones/Mori to rebuild attacks.

If we keep the ball well and are able to play it from the back then we wont be giving the ball away so much and can plah a higher defensive line....NONE of the defenders other than Stones and Mori (possibly also Oviedo and Galloway) can keep the ball at a level which is needed = sitting too deep in defence.

As per the centre backs especially, Mori and Stones are "on paper" the best partnership. However Mori is adapting in his first season and Stones has gone through his first bad patch as a 21 year old....Jagielka is a good defender but doesnt fit the style of play. In your EDIT you mentioned Jags saving Mori....i also saw Mori save Jags 2ce against arsenal.

What Martinez needs to do in the summer is bring in HIS OWN players....he hasnt done too badly with his signings for the first eleven so far.

I think we need defenders who can defend but also who can pass the ball from the back....if we had a Marcel Desailly type (Kalidou Koulibaly'Napoli') then he would tick the boxes for me.....as would a pair of full backs who defend first and dont get caught out of position so much.

These crosses coming in should be stopped at source and were cut down when oviedo was in for baines....i wonder if coleman had competition from a more defensive right back if these crosses wouldnt also stop from the right.

Arsenal and Barca dont have pure defensive players who cant distribute effectively (Jagielka) nor do they have full backs caught out of position so much as they have been playing so long as attacking full backs which we dont really need anymore.

There's really too much wrong with this post to start with. Arsenal are loaded with boss ball playing CB's aren't they? Martesacker/ Koscienly/Gabriel.. Had you even heard of Koulibali a few months ago? Coleman is probably better with the ball at his feet than all you've mentioned bar Stones. Have a good long look at goals conceded this season and see how many are direct errors of Stones or Mori compared to Jags. I never said Jags covered for Mori. I'm saying BOTH arsenal goals ball playing Mori was NOT in a defensive position.

 

[jazzy]

I think we have two very good attacking full backs in Coleman and Baines.....perfect for how we were setup under Moyes with them charging forward.

Now with a possession based game it seems they should be able to pass the ball and the team keep the ball rather than them naturally charging forward (which is fun to watch but not when they cant get back into position like baines last game).

Coleman and Baines i think cant play this system...Coleman cant play with Deulofeu but can play with Lennon....why is that? Baines also does better with Cleverley in front of him rather than an attacking player.....

We have a system where the wide players should be attacking yet are caught short as we dont have the full backs to defend behind them.

Generally under Martinez the full backs starting position is the half way line with Barry dropping far deeper than most holding midfielders making it 2.5 at the back.

We are too streched , too exposed , too many holes on the pitch.

Problem is most of us have been saying this for months and longer and if we can see it what do proper tactical analysts make of Everton's way of playing and how to play against it.

In a nutsell we are too open.

 

[DrEFC]

There are no other options in defence.

Martinez has only signed Mori and Galloway....hopefully in the summer he focuses on new defenders.3

And alcaraz

 

[Zatara]

But what about the fact that these players were more than good enough in Martinez first season.

Why are they suddenly not good enough?

Jagielka fitted the style of play then, Coleman was one of the best RB in the league, Baines one of the Best LB.

Unless you're saying Sylvain Distin was the greatest defender of all time and is irreplaceable then the fault for wrecking these players lies with the Manager and the coaches he brought in.

Or you could say that:

Distin and Jagielka was a settled partnership...

Stones had his first bad patch for us
Mori is new to the league
Baines is clearly not the same player
Coleman is up and down like a yoyo
Howard massively declined
McCarthy being out was a major factor

Theres a lot of reasons here....but i think a major one is that the team has been undergoing a major overhaul...also that Martinez hasnt begun changing the defence yet....bar Mori/Gallloway for Distin.

 

[bring the ghost on]

In a nutsell we are too open.

No chance, we're solid, impossible to breakdown.

 

[DualityNSNO]

I have the opposite view...

To be successful with this style every player needs to be able to keep the ball and pass it to a team mate. The only players who are weak at passing are Jagielka, Coleman and McCarthy (Baines notably has gone downhill head also).

However McCarthys job is to pass it simply to keep the ball...hes no busquets but i doubt he gives the ball away and can pass to Barry or Stones/Mori to rebuild attacks.

If we keep the ball well and are able to play it from the back then we wont be giving the ball away so much and can plah a higher defensive line....NONE of the defenders other than Stones and Mori (possibly also Oviedo and Galloway) can keep the ball at a level which is needed = sitting too deep in defence.

As per the centre backs especially, Mori and Stones are "on paper" the best partnership. However Mori is adapting in his first season and Stones has gone through his first bad patch as a 21 year old....Jagielka is a good defender but doesnt fit the style of play. In your EDIT you mentioned Jags saving Mori....i also saw Mori save Jags 2ce against arsenal.

What Martinez needs to do in the summer is bring in HIS OWN players....he hasnt done too badly with his signings for the first eleven so far.

I think we need defenders who can defend but also who can pass the ball from the back....if we had a Marcel Desailly type (Kalidou Koulibaly'Napoli') then he would tick the boxes for me.....as would a pair of full backs who defend first and dont get caught out of position so much.

These crosses coming in should be stopped at source and were cut down when oviedo was in for baines....i wonder if coleman had competition from a more defensive right back if these crosses wouldnt also stop from the right.

Arsenal and Barca dont have pure defensive players who cant distribute effectively (Jagielka) nor do they have full backs caught out of position so much as they have been playing so long as attacking full backs which we dont really need anymore.

This would literally erase any kind of wing support we have as we know it now - our width relies on fullbacks bombing forward to open space for wingers to move in to or just to drag players out towards them, leaving space between them and the CB, and vice versa (wingers cuts in, full back has loads of space behind him... Coleman makes me sad as he usually gets the most time to cross and his crosses make kittens cry)

It's not impossible to get two "defensive" full backs but Boberto will have to rethink his whole gameplan and stop playing 2 DM's, which I'm 1000000% for. Leave McCarthy (as Barry is getting older etc) as our most defence-minded midfield enforcer sitting right in front of the CB's just to take the ball off them and play simple possession passes (which he can do as we all know), and push one of the DM's further up, so essentially we have a 4-1-4-1, not a 4-2-3-1, with more play coming through the middle. The full backs themselves in that case don't even need to be Hibbert-levels of defensive, it's just that they won't bomb forward as often and would cross from deep instead of overlapping for no reason (at times), leaving us open to counters.

What I've just written goes against everything Roberto believes in though, so the chances of it happening in real life are slim to none, and we all know that.

Comparing the Barca/Arsenal style to ours is just silly though, as they are fundamentally different. Both teams often play in that 4-1-4-1 (in defence; 4-1-2-3 or 4-3-3 with a guy sitting deep if you will) I just described, we play nothing like that - two defensive midfielders to cover the positions of the full backs overlapping (way too) deep.

 

[Timak]

In the last 12 months the following teams are the only ones not to score at Goodison in their league match against us - Aston Villa and Newcastle.

2 home clean sheets in 12 months.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

Sorry I may have phrased it badly

He's made a £40m defender look like a £5m defender

Going by that logic then, Martinez has made a £28m striker look like a £50/£60m striker?

 

[Zatara]

Generally under Martinez the full backs starting position is the half way line with Barry dropping far deeper than most holding midfielders making it 2.5 at the back.

We are too streched , too exposed , too many holes on the pitch.

Problem is most of us have been saying this for months and longer and if we can see it what do proper tactical analysts make of Everton's way of playing and how to play against it.

In a nutsell we are too open.

Wth Baines and Coleman what else to tell them to do? Sit back and defend and pass forward etc....thats not their game...see the difference with Oviedo (to a point).

I honestly think he (and we) need to see martinez own players in there, he was after Sergi Roberto before and hes done an incredible job at RB from being a DM this season by all accounts...perhaps its a simple as needing his own players there who suit his system.

Hes done we everywhere else and with mori and galloway...now time for the defence.

he must be sick of all the defensive issues and surely will make changes now.

 

[bluewally]

Or you could say that:

Distin and Jagielka was a settled partnership...

Stones had his first bad patch for us
Mori is new to the league
Baines is clearly not the same player
Coleman is up and down like a yoyo
Howard massively declined
McCarthy being out was a major factor

Theres a lot of reasons here....but i think a major one is that the team has been undergoing a major overhaul...also that Martinez hasnt begun changing the defence yet....bar Mori/Gallloway for Distin.

I think you are looking at the situation through Bobby tinted glasses.

He's taken 4 international defenders and made them play like lads you wouldn't want in your 5-a-side team.

Although this managers idea of an international level defender is Titus Bramble so maybe that's his template.

 

[The Esk]

Davek seems to be able to logically deny anything based on his current contributions. Can you verify he's a blue based on personal knowledge?

There's absolutely no need or reason to question @davek's blue credentials. He's as passionate a blue as anyone on this site.