Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[JAYTALITY]

Squeezing another 7 points out to put on top of Moyes' best ever points total...with HIS players, is the very definition of getting those players to perform to a level greater than the sum of their parts.

That type of all encompassing terminology sounds good, but it doesn't stand up to any rigorous testing.


Why do you talk about 'consistency' then do the very opposite in your appraisal? If you're looking for consistency in this feller's Everton career you use all three seasons he's been here.

File under 'inconvenient truth'.

But he is still crap even if you go back 3 seasons ago. If that freak 72 points season was this season youd might have a leg to stand on but you don't.

 

[davek]

7 points. Only with Lukaku rather than Anichebe. Amazing.

Lukaku contributed 15 league goals that season. Moyes had Saha and Yakubu the first contributed 13 and the second 15 goals in separate seasons when Moyes had Everton as 'best of the rest'.

As said, 7 points (two wins and a draw better than Moyes best season out of the 11 he was here.). That drone Moyes would have been here for another 11 seasons and not hit that mark.

 

[DrEFC]

They did?

Jose is notorious for setting up teams mega defensively and relying on flair players to create, which for me is why he struggled at Real.

?!

He won his first prem by countering with Robben and Duff, right?

 

[nsno-chris]

Has this whopper been sacked yet. C'mon Mush, do it....DOOOOOOOOOO IT

 

[Saint Domingo]

Are you talking about the same biffs that were moaning and groaning after we drew our first three games with him in charge? Yeah...I think you are. Petulant children are less impatient.

Can't remember anyone moaning. In fact I don't remember a word of dissent until about Cheistnas 14/15 where things started to get unavoidably bleak. He's had loads of time to turn it around but hasn't. For a lot of fans he even started this season with a clean slate but the weight of evidence against him now is too much for most fans. This doesn't make them petulant. They just know the difference between a manager who needs time and an arrogant fraud.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

Lukaku contributed 15 league goals that season. Moyes had Saha and Yakubu the first contributed 13 and the second 15 goals in separate seasons when Moyes had Everton as 'best of the rest'.

As said, 7 points (two wins and a draw better than Moyes best season out of the 11 he was here.). That drone Moyes would have been here for another 11 seasons and not hit that mark.

...the 72, it's as meaningless as finishing 5th that mate.

 

[davek]

1st season - 5th, all time high points, out of both cups early
2nd season - 11th, meh season, out of both cups early, reached quite far in the Europa and failed in the most important moment
3rd season - probably looking at below 11th if league form is to continue, but we've reached two semi finals in the cups.

So slight progress in the cups, massive obvious regression in the league.

File under 'inconvenient truth'.

Regression from what to what? From a pat on the head to n pat on the head.

You talk like we've slipped away from being a title winning and cup winning team.

Isn't that why we were all asking for investment and bemoaning the glass ceiling?

No consistency. This is what it comes down to all the time.

 

[DualityNSNO]

He won his first prem by countering with Robben and Duff, right?

Not saying he always did it, but in the last few years he changed massively to winning games without looking good at Chelsea. Essentially the same playstyle he had in Portugal.

 

[davek]

...the 72, it's as meaningless as finishing 5th that mate.

How is it meaningless when it sets a benchmark for any manager of this club to surpass? And if they do, a CL spot will likely come with it.

That's its importance.

 

[eddy]

I take nothing back about what I said about Leicester.

They are a very poor team technically speaking. Their style of play is not to my taste. 100 MPH grafting. Let's have it right, if Chelsea had won the PL in this fashion they'd have been slaughtered for it. Ranieri deserves to be named manager of the century for getting a title challenge out of them. It's unreal how he's whipped 13 or 14 mostly journeymen players to play consistently at this intensity. It's right up there with what Clough did at Forest. Please dont compare what he's done, plaiting sawdust at Leicester, with what Moyes did at Everton. Moyes did nothing of importance at Everton. Nothing.

Apart from stopping us being relegated every year .....

 

[davek]

They did?

Jose is notorious for setting up teams mega defensively and relying on flair players to create, which for me is why he struggled at Real.

?!

...yes, and so if you're being consistent (that word again) you'd call what leicester offered up mince too.

 

[bluestevon]

Yes, well I would never deny that Moyes served his purpose when he arrived here. He added much needed discipline and set the ship on a steady enough course (apart from his second season when he had it heading for the rocks with a late collapse). However, let's not put him on a pedestal he hasn't earned. Top half finishes get you nothing. Bottom line was he was here 11 seasons and delivered nothing tangible in terms of success. 11 seasons. A remarkable amount of time for any manager anywhere. A man who was, with Wenger and SAF, one of the most highly paid managers in the PL. He delivered a brand of football that was for the most part underwhelming (and atrocious on many occasions) and he won nothing. Not one thing.

Martinez has managed for 7 years and all he has to show for it is one 5th placed trophy, a fa cup bought at the expense of relagting the team into obscuity and the lower reaches of the english leagues, was moyes alowed to stay on way past his time - yup as you know i wanted him out for a long long time before he finally left, but two wrongs don't make a wright mate, can't criticise the board for not moving moyes out the club - then use the exact same argument that because they gave a manager too much time then they should give the next one also mtoo mcuh time, as for Moyes wages - errm you see what Martinez earns per year mate? Hardly peanuts - and far more than a man whose last action before coming here was relegating a team deserves.

As for Moyes being on a pedestal - when he took over most Evertonians thought it was a matter of when not if we where going to be relegated mate, he banished all that for good - even that one shakey season he had - we where never in any danger of going down - and you know that, Martinez had us more scared last season of relagation than moyes ever did.

Btw, he wasn't forced to sell Rooney: he absolutely relished the idea of getting a headstrong but crazily talented player out the door (one that he was clueless how to nurture and play) and get the cash back in to spend on journeymen players who could keep our heads above water. He didn't sell Rooney and get no money did he? Go back and look at Everton's spending in total for the first 6 seasons or so Moyes was here before the roof fell in and a firesale was ordered in 2009. The net spend was quite high. He wasn't starved of funds in that period. He wasn't at a major disadvantage with clubs outside of the financially doped elite clubs, he was just bereft of any talent at coaching players to go out and win major games.

You want to compare that drone favourably with Martinez? Ok.

he had 27m net spend in those first 6 years, after the fire sale as you put it though here is the remarkable thing mate - we stayed at the same level in terms of league performance and improved in the cup overall, Martinez when asked to cut wages at Wigan got them relegated - se the difference? - journeyman players who earned this club their best ever league position finish and became one of only two teams in a long time to crack the monopoly of the CL regulars - yeah terrible manager, hmm bereft at talent at winning games - did he ever win just 4 games at home all season Dave? did he ever lose 8 games at home? stop talking utter bobbins

You see, that part in bold depends on you being able to pass off Martinez's first season here as either an irrelevancy or one that was partly owed to Moyes...both bogus arguments smuggled into the debate and worthy only some well earned scorn. He's a manager without the necessary skills to manage in the top end of the table...yet he got a club...in the top end of the table...with a points tally that usually gets a CL spot.

You can see how ludicrous the proposition is when you just pause and read it back to yourself.

He has managed one good defensive season in 7 years of managing in the top flight, he has managed one good season in 7 years of managing in the top flight, the same season and the one that followed taking over from a very good defensive and fitness orientated manager - but yes ofc that is pure coincidence, the real martinez is that years one - not the the one based on his other 6 years performances.
Further proof - the further we are getting away from the squad Moyes left behind and the more this is becoming truly Martinez team then we are seeing the results, cup run and crap in the league, open attacking football but no defense
1 good year in seven - if he was a boxer mate he'd be a journeyman with that record

Well, I'd say when he does leave (more than likely after seeing his contract out) you will be able to thank Martinez for sure for dragging Everton away from a lamentable direct play brand of Gaelic football/Association Football hybrid which had for too embarrassingly long been allowed to define this club as an archaic and out of touch with the 21st century organisation. I said when Martinez stepped through the door that it fell to him to take back this club from that horrible brand and reintroduce it to its own traditions of keeping and passing the ball, not fearing it like it was a hand-grenade without its pin out. And he's done that and will continue to embed that game - hopefully to a point where anyone succeeding him cant get away with a return to the muck of the near past.

If you think the type of football we are playing now could lift a candle to the 80's brand Dave then your lying, most fans going to the game are absolutely bored to tears with the way we are playing and as for not playing with fear - did you miss Martinez admitting that the players at home are playing with fear? LOL

 

[bluestevon]

Yes, well I would never deny that Moyes served his purpose when he arrived here. He added much needed discipline and set the ship on a steady enough course (apart from his second season when he had it heading for the rocks with a late collapse). However, let's not put him on a pedestal he hasn't earned. Top half finishes get you nothing. Bottom line was he was here 11 seasons and delivered nothing tangible in terms of success. 11 seasons. A remarkable amount of time for any manager anywhere. A man who was, with Wenger and SAF, one of the most highly paid managers in the PL. He delivered a brand of football that was for the most part underwhelming (and atrocious on many occasions) and he won nothing. Not one thing.

Martinez has managed for 7 years and all he has to show for it is one 5th placed trophy, a fa cup bought at the expense of relagting the team into obscuity and the lower reaches of the english leagues, was moyes alowed to stay on way past his time - yup as you know i wanted him out for a long long time before he finally left, but two wrongs don't make a wright mate, can't criticise the board for not moving moyes out the club - then use the exact same argument that because they gave a manager too much time then they should give the next one also mtoo mcuh time, as for Moyes wages - errm you see what Martinez earns per year mate? Hardly peanuts - and far more than a man whose last action before coming here was relegating a team deserves.

As for Moyes being on a pedestal - when he took over most Evertonians thought it was a matter of when not if we where going to be relegated mate, he banished all that for good - even that one shakey season he had - we where never in any danger of going down - and you know that, Martinez had us more scared last season of relagation than moyes ever did.

Btw, he wasn't forced to sell Rooney: he absolutely relished the idea of getting a headstrong but crazily talented player out the door (one that he was clueless how to nurture and play) and get the cash back in to spend on journeymen players who could keep our heads above water. He didn't sell Rooney and get no money did he? Go back and look at Everton's spending in total for the first 6 seasons or so Moyes was here before the roof fell in and a firesale was ordered in 2009. The net spend was quite high. He wasn't starved of funds in that period. He wasn't at a major disadvantage with clubs outside of the financially doped elite clubs, he was just bereft of any talent at coaching players to go out and win major games.

You want to compare that drone favourably with Martinez? Ok.

he had 27m net spend in those first 6 years, after the fire sale as you put it though here is the remarkable thing mate - we stayed at the same level in terms of league performance and improved in the cup overall, Martinez when asked to cut wages at Wigan got them relegated - se the difference? - journeyman players who earned this club their best ever league position finish and became one of only two teams in a long time to crack the monopoly of the CL regulars - yeah terrible manager, hmm bereft at talent at winning games - did he ever win just 4 games at home all season Dave? did he ever lose 8 games at home? stop talking utter bobbins

You see, that part in bold depends on you being able to pass off Martinez's first season here as either an irrelevancy or one that was partly owed to Moyes...both bogus arguments smuggled into the debate and worthy only some well earned scorn. He's a manager without the necessary skills to manage in the top end of the table...yet he got a club...in the top end of the table...with a points tally that usually gets a CL spot.

You can see how ludicrous the proposition is when you just pause and read it back to yourself.

He has managed one good defensive season in 7 years of managing in the top flight, he has managed one good season in 7 years of managing in the top flight, the same season and the one that followed taking over from a very good defensive and fitness orientated manager - but yes ofc that is pure coincidence, the real martinez is that years one - not the the one based on his other 6 years performances.
Further proof - the further we are getting away from the squad Moyes left behind and the more this is becoming truly Martinez team then we are seeing the results, cup run and crap in the league, open attacking football but no defense
1 good year in seven - if he was a boxer mate he'd be a journeyman with that record

Well, I'd say when he does leave (more than likely after seeing his contract out) you will be able to thank Martinez for sure for dragging Everton away from a lamentable direct play brand of Gaelic football/Association Football hybrid which had for too embarrassingly long been allowed to define this club as an archaic and out of touch with the 21st century organisation. I said when Martinez stepped through the door that it fell to him to take back this club from that horrible brand and reintroduce it to its own traditions of keeping and passing the ball, not fearing it like it was a hand-grenade without its pin out. And he's done that and will continue to embed that game - hopefully to a point where anyone succeeding him cant get away with a return to the muck of the near past.

If you think the type of football we are playing now could lift a candle to the 80's brand Dave then your lying, most fans going to the game are absolutely bored to tears with the way we are playing and as for not playing with fear - did you miss Martinez admitting that the players at home are playing with fear? LOL

 

[DualityNSNO]

Regression from what to what? From a pat on the head to n pat on the head.

You talk like we've slipped away from being a title winning and cup winning team.

Isn't that why we were all asking for investment and bemoaning the glass ceiling?

No consistency. This is what it comes down to all the time.

So you are telling me going from finishing top 5/6 every year, including Martinez' first season, to finishing below 10th isn't regression because of a cup run, and then blaming the board?

What?

 

[ilikecheese]

Can't remember anyone moaning. In fact I don't remember a word of dissent until about Cheistnas 14/15 where things started to get unavoidably bleak. He's had loads of time to turn it around but hasn't. For a lot of fans he even started this season with a clean slate but the weight of evidence against him now is too much for most fans. This doesn't make them petulant. They just know the difference between a manager who needs time and an arrogant fraud.

You have blinders on if you don't remember the moaning after those first three matches. It was a joke.