Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[BlueToff]

So what you want is s balanced side that can play on the front foot to break teams down but also have a counterattacking ability when the opposition has the ball? It's what I've banged on about for ages on here but sadly is not what Martinez is currently building.

You're wrong mate.

That's clearly what he wants to do, and @mkrudden and yourself are spot on in saying that's the way to go.

We've nailed it in the away games but cannot repeat the feat at home, which is ridiculous, and RM goes back to the more 'possession-based' style and we ultimately haven't got that star playmaker to break teams down or - if we do manage to break them down - then we also leak goals.

So, the question simply remains, is RM the manager who can achieve that style in the long-run.

He (and the team) seems very adept at it in away fixtures and cup matches, but when there's three points up for grabs at Goodison, and the pressure is on, he and the players crumble.

 

[Saint Domingo]

And a Barry heir @Saint Domingo

So that's 4 positions. That's before any players leave this summer (probably Lukaku). So after three seasons we've only sorted half the first 11? And we just need to bow get a spine in GK, CB, playmaker, defensive mid and striker?

Face it, this iteration of Martinez's team is at an end. There's no 5 year plan, there never was, we're looking at a complete refresh of the first team in the summer. The question is, is Martinez the man to be trusted with trying to craft a new team for success over the next three years? Not for me.

 

[Saint Domingo]

You're wrong mate.

That's clearly what he wants to do, and @mkrudden and yourself are spot on in saying that's the way to go.

We've nailed it in the away games but cannot repeat the feat at home, which is ridiculous, and RM goes back to the more 'possession-based' style and we ultimately haven't got that star playmaker to break teams down or - if we do manage to break them down - then we also leak goals.

So, the question simply remains, is RM the manager who can achieve that style in the long-run.

He (and the team) seems very adept at it in away fixtures and cup matches, but when there's three points up for grabs at Goodison, and the pressure is on, he and the players crumble.

I'm not saying he doesn't want to do it, I'm saying currently he's not doing it, as you've just outlined yourself.

 

[mkrudden]

So that's 4 positions. That's before any players leave this summer (probably Lukaku). So after three seasons we've only sorted half the first 11? And we just need to bow get a spine in GK, CB, playmaker, defensive mid and striker?

Face it, this iteration of Martinez's team is at an end. There's no 5 year plan, there never was, we're looking at a complete refresh of the first team in the summer. The question is, is Martinez the man to be trusted with trying to craft a new team for success over the next three years? Not for me.

And I can't grumble that you think that regarding trusting him.
I can disagree though on the plan. No 5 year plan? There isn't going to be an exodus. We've had this conversation before. The plan was never though to have the same players for 7 or 8 years on the previous financial model. It was to bring in 2 or 3 per summer, develop them, keep as many as we can but face the fact we would lose some on the way. With that money, reinvest but aiming to bring in more proven quality.

We lose Lukaku this summer maybe. But we would have looked to bring in a 35mil striker. No doubt.

Under the new model we will go out and get those players regardless. By doing so, the plan is accelerated and the demand on Martinez grow.

 

[BlueToff]

I'm not saying he doesn't want to do it, I'm saying currently he's not doing it, as you've just outlined yourself.

Fair enough - I miss-read.

It's true.

He's currently managed half of it but ultimately cannot get it right consistently.

I'm still willing (if he gives us results in the next 9 league games and a cup final/win [depending on our league finish, which atm looks like bottom half]), to give him a bit of time next season to show he can get it right fully - just as the attack improved ten-fold this season compared to last.

But, equally so, I'm now at the point that if he does go in the summer, I won't care - as long as we get a proven quality replacement (a move for Koeman wouldn't go a-miss, especially considering he has had to constantly deal with squads that lose their best players, which seems likely to happen this window with Stones and Rom...).

 

[BlueToff]

And I can't grumble that you think that regarding trusting him.
I can disagree though on the plan. No 5 year plan? There isn't going to be an exodus. We've had this conversation before. The plan was never though to have the same players for 7 or 8 years on the previous financial model. It was to bring in 2 or 3 per summer, develop them, keep as many as we can but face the fact we would lose some on the way. With that money, reinvest but aiming to bring in more proven quality.

We lose Lukaku this summer maybe. But we would have looked to bring in a 35mil striker. No doubt.

Under the new model we will go out and get those players regardless. By doing so, the plan is accelerated and the demand on Martinez grow.

Spot on.

Which means the question simply is, is Martinez the one to take that plan on to the next level.

Personally, I'm leaning towards him/his tactics/teams not being consistent enough in the league to ever accomplish anything more than mid-table at best, and at worst, serious threat of a dog-fight simply due to how open they are when they play the way they are best at.

For me, I'm leaning the way of that he is a cup manager - somebody who can pull it off in one-off games - but not in the long run.

That being said, if he does win the cup and/or somehow we manage to claw up into the top 8, I think it would be harsh for him to lose his job - though he would be treading on thin ice next season.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

The thing is mate we don't do that nearly enough without leaving ourselves open, as you correctly point out.

I can't see how people don't like Leicester's style.

It's really not 'hit and rush'.

I watched a lot of them (12/14) games in the first part of this season for work.

They played some superb stuff. And I stress again, I haven't seen us string anything like the below together all season

I think Leicester get a bit of a poor deal really - their football isn't nearly half as bad as people make out... They are top of the league, i don't think they are bothered - they mix it up when they need to (like all teams should).

 

[mkrudden]

Let's just say, purely as an example, that he brings in this summer:

Timo Horn (never seen him play but you lot all spaff over him)
Ryan Shawcross (or some other proven, old fashioned defender)
Yarmolenko
Danny Drinkwater

Some of these are maybe ridiculous, granted. If he did bring the above in, would you be happy to give him 6 months of genuine support?

 

[royalblue66]

If Rom goes at the end of Season,I am at a loss who we could bring in ,what top draw striker is going to join a mid table team.

 

[BlueToff]

Let's just say, purely as an example, that he brings in this summer:

Timo Horn (never seen him play but you lot all spaff over him)
Ryan Shawcross (or some other proven, old fashioned defender)
Yarmolenko
Danny Drinkwater

Some of these are maybe ridiculous, granted. If he did bring the above in, would you be happy to give him 6 months of genuine support?

I think it all depends on the end of this season mate.

We've got very good players as it is but ultimately we're not doing it in the league. We've got a striker who has scored 18 goals and we are 12th.

We desperately need a keeper, yes.

Centre-half. Hmm. It depends on Stones. But if he does go then I don't think an out-and-out defender is that vital. By that I mean that I don't think Shawcross would have solved any of our issues this season as for as good as a defender as he is, he would have caused us more problems by not at all fitting into the style we do play.

Alderweireld you wouldn't put in the same bracket as Shawcross, but he's been immense this season. So think we need more of a solid head who knows how to play from the back (of international standard) if Stones does leave.

 

[BlueToff]

If Rom goes at the end of Season,I am at a loss who we could bring in ,what top draw striker is going to join a mid table team.

You missed out Premier League, mate.

Doesn't matter if it's mid-table really. The wages and money for the selling team is there, so the players would come.

Lacazette, Batshuayi are two players off the top of my head that would jump at the chance to join us.

The obvious issue is they don't have Premier League experience, though you often find that's much less of an issue with strikers.

 

[mkrudden]

If Rom goes at the end of Season,I am at a loss who we could bring in ,what top draw striker is going to join a mid table team.

Not saying I'd be happy with it, but I'll wager we bring in Bony.

 

[BlueToff]

Not saying I'd be happy with it, but I'll wager we bring in Bony.

Could be an option.

If he does go, we probably do need two players to come in and replace him - obviously depending on Niasse, and I think Kone will be shipped on.

We could do better than Bony, however, though he does have that Premier League experience, and when he can be bothered he's a very good player.

 

[Jags..class]

What was our home record like over the previous seasons under martinez

 

[Jreverton1]

Kante would be a fantastic addition. Drinkwater...it's a difficult one. Now he has established himself, how will he cope with being tighter marked. Does he have the ability to constantly create different angles to receive the ball? If yes then he seems very much a Barry replacement in the making.

So to answer your question, yes, they would make a massive difference. I like JMc as you know however Kante has been a revelation.

Throw in a sturdy keeper and another CB and we will be right up there next season.

Keep the same squad, throw in a different manager and we will be right up there next season...