Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[BlueToff]

That was the benchmark he set himself.

And he came very close in his first season with a tally that this season would see us finish top three.

He hasn't replicated that and now seems to be incapable/unwilling to make certain tweaks that could (not definitely) see us challenge again.

Still, Dave's right in the sense that Everton have never sacked a manager for finishing bottom half, or not getting Europe.

In all seriousness, if Martinez did say that (which yeh he may well have done - who knows with Bill - but I can imagine RM setting that target) then I don't think that there will have been a time-frame on it.

This season is so frustrating because of the amount of points we've thrown away (especially at home) and other 'lesser' sides, like Leicester and West Ham, taking advantage of the situation of ourselves, Liverpool and Chelsea to get up into the top six.

As Dave again rightly points out, they could equally be 'one-off' seasons for those sides.

Not saying I'm happy with the current situation, and at this point I'm not bothered if he goes and equally I'd be happy for him to stay - granted he can transfer the cup form to the league and chop out the same mistakes - which he looked to have done for a while then took a huge step back vs W.Ham.

 

[BlueToff]

But if he was given a four year deal you'd have to assume that was the timeframe

Yeh. So one year left...

 

[Prevenger17]

..or any other managers in the PL. Why isolate Martinez?

This is the crux of it for me. We're too entrenched in the thinking that there is a "traditional" top 4 when all trends seem to be veering away from that. Every team has money now, and though we could reasonably expect to be pushing for the top 4 with our squad, so could West Ham, Southampton, Man United, Man City, Spurs, Arsenal and, evidently, Leicester. Even Chelsea should be expecting top 4, but their season seems to be more a collective downing of tools rather than a lack of talent. Liverpool, with their outlay over the last years, should be aiming for it too. 9 teams into 4 spots doesn't go.

The fact is, it was easier when there were 4 teams ruling the roost, you knew who you were chasing and there were definable targets. There's been an influx of money and talent, but it has mainly given benefit to "traditional" rivals, the best of the rest so to speak. 3 years ago we said "that was our best chance to break the top 4". Then we said it again next year, and now this year again. If anything, it seems to be getting easier. But obviously it's not, because the mid table is more equitable and competitive. I wouldn't be surprised if league placings started becoming a little more fluid and unpredictable and next year, too, will be one of those great chances to achieve top 4.

 

[DualityNSNO]

Yeh. So one year left...

But then he signed a 5 year extension at the end of his first, so until 2019 left.

 

[The Esk]

His management capabilities depend on him securing a top 4 spot or he's out? Whenever has that been the benchmark at this club? As said before: the task set Martinez seems to be much greater than that set any Everton manager in the past, and that is a nonsense given that we stand pretty much where we've ever been up to this moment in time in terms of financial backing for a manager. As for other managers doing more with less: what, like Martinez in his first season here? One off season I'm told by others, but the Ranieri and Bilic seasons could equally be that one off. You just dont know....not that they haven't spent, btw.

The 'necessary skills' argument you use is so abstract as to be meaningless. It's just a more polite way of saying 'he's rubbish'.

Well as already demonstrated, they are the manager's own words, his objectives and I think in the light of the playing resources available to him, and the fact that other teams have sustained a challenge and the opportunity presented by the relative demise of Chelsea, Manchester City, United and Liverpool, a "sustained top four challenge" is not an unrealistic target or benchmark to accept.

I have never said Martinez is "rubbish", I expressed doubts a year ago and now express the firm belief he does not possess all the skills necessary to sustain a top 4 challenge.

I even specified the areas I believe him to be weak in, which I will gladly repeat:

"Specifically, he lacks the ability to instil belief in his players, he lacks tactical awareness and the ability to change the course of a game through change of tactics or personnel and thirdly he lacks the ability to organise a team defensively, and improve individual defenders."

I think he's an honourable man, from what I know inside the club he's dedicated and committed - he has many positive attributes, but he is not the man, in my opinion, to take us to the top table of English football let alone European football, which is where our ambitions should lay.

 

[ijjysmith]

OH MY GOD

Are we level on points with Bournemouth?

This is why I don't look at the league table.

 

[DualityNSNO]

This is the crux of it for me. We're too entrenched in the thinking that there is a "traditional" top 4 when all trends seem to be veering away from that. Every team has money now, and though we could reasonably expect to be pushing for the top 4 with our squad, so could West Ham, Southampton, Man United, Man City, Spurs, Arsenal and, evidently, Leicester. Even Chelsea should be expecting top 4, but their season seems to be more a collective downing of tools rather than a lack of talent. Liverpool, with their outlay over the last years, should be aiming for it too. 9 teams into 4 spots doesn't go.

The fact is, it was easier when there were 4 teams ruling the roost, you knew who you were chasing and there were definable targets. There's been an influx of money and talent, but it has mainly given benefit to "traditional" rivals, the best of the rest so to speak. 3 years ago we said "that was our best chance to break the top 4". Then we said it again next year, and now this year again. If anything, it seems to be getting easier. But obviously it's not, because the mid table is more equitable and competitive. I wouldn't be surprised if league placings started becoming a little more fluid and unpredictable and next year, too, will be one of those great chances to achieve top 4.

The problem for me with that is that we're not even competing for the "more open" top 4/5 spots, and we don't even look able to most the time.

See the examples you gave - all of those teams (and Stoke) are now pushing and competing for said top spots, while we're the #entertainers sitting below 10th again. What does that say about us, considering everyone and their nan knows we have better players than most those teams?

 

[chicoazul]

OH MY GOD

Are we level on points with Bournemouth?

This is why I don't look at the league table.

That's shocking. The players and resources we have compared to Bournemouth.

 

[DualityNSNO]

OH MY GOD

Are we level on points with Bournemouth?

This is why I don't look at the league table.

lol
We've played less games though, I think?

 

[bluewally]

Yeh. So one year left...

Is it realistic to think we will get 4th or higher next year?

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

Well as already demonstrated, they are the manager's own words, his objectives and I think in the light of the playing resources available to him, the fact that other teams have sustained a challenge and the opportunity presented by the relative demise of Chelsea, Manchester City, United and Liverpool, a "sustained top four challenge" is not an unrealistic target or benchmark to accept.

I have never said Martinez is "rubbish", I expressed doubts a year ago and now express the firm belief he does not possess all the skills necessary to sustain a top 4 challenge.

I even specified the areas I believe him to be weak in, which I will gladly repeat:

"Specifically, he lacks the ability to instil belief in his players, he lacks tactical awareness and the ability to change the course of a game through change of tactics or personnel and thirdly he lacks the ability to organise a team defensively, and improve individual defenders."

I think he's an honourable man, from what I know inside the club he's dedicated and committed - he has many positive attributes, but he is not the man, in my opinion, to take us to the top table of English football let alone European football, which is where our ambitions should lay.

I mentioned this recently @The Esk, some managers have the knack of getting players to run through walls for them - the team look like they have very little fight in them at the moment, Saturday was a disgrace, but it wasn't the first time thats happened under Martinez.

 

[sixtynineseventy]

Mid table again would be more realistic with RM in charge. It's not immediately clear to me how we would improve next season as whoever is brought in will be required to play the same way with presumably similar results?

 

[degsy]

...and you'll be needing it soon enough.

For why?
don't bother, I'll have a stab at your answer

because the next manager cannot help but be a Moyes clone and a poorer one to boot, thus we will all be getting what we wish for and these can be the only options. Martinez or Moyes

give over you big daft ha'porth.

#the goldilocks option

 

[davek]

Time is given to those who show progress on all fronts, or at least the ones that matter. A cup run this year and a finish even further down in the league is quite a crap progress pattern. And what will this so-called "progress be" if we still finish worse in the league than last year, but also lose in the semi?

More time and money then, cuz this season was all down to Kenwrong not having money?

And that time is five seasons. Time should only be called sooner if the club is in danger. This isn't Man City or Chelsea...I think some people are running away with the idea that things have changed with Moshiri being here. Well, might I remind you that he's put nothing into this squad as yet.

 

[davek]

This is the crux of it for me. We're too entrenched in the thinking that there is a "traditional" top 4 when all trends seem to be veering away from that. Every team has money now, and though we could reasonably expect to be pushing for the top 4 with our squad, so could West Ham, Southampton, Man United, Man City, Spurs, Arsenal and, evidently, Leicester. Even Chelsea should be expecting top 4, but their season seems to be more a collective downing of tools rather than a lack of talent. Liverpool, with their outlay over the last years, should be aiming for it too. 9 teams into 4 spots doesn't go.

The fact is, it was easier when there were 4 teams ruling the roost, you knew who you were chasing and there were definable targets. There's been an influx of money and talent, but it has mainly given benefit to "traditional" rivals, the best of the rest so to speak. 3 years ago we said "that was our best chance to break the top 4". Then we said it again next year, and now this year again. If anything, it seems to be getting easier. But obviously it's not, because the mid table is more equitable and competitive. I wouldn't be surprised if league placings started becoming a little more fluid and unpredictable and next year, too, will be one of those great chances to achieve top 4.

Spot on that. The landscape has dramatically changed. I still think the massive spenders like City, United and Chelsea will remain there or thereabouts, but the shake up for the European spots will intensify.