TheFinnFan
Finners
Behave you ignorant man. We are Everton.
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Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)
- Thread starter Fat Stan
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Behave you ignorant man. We are Everton.
Sentinel
Player Valuation: £8m
It's got everything to do with it, if you've been paying attention. It's not just about this season, or the last ten seasons for that matter. It's got everything to do with a board who have under-invested, shabbily ran the club, loaned it to the hilt, like big pimpin' on Lime Street. And effectively castrated this club until it was unrecognizable from the form it used to be. And after all that, if you still think that Martinez or even Moyes for that matter have led this great club to where it is today. I have to say. Simply, sir you haven't been paying attention.
How am I underplaying it? I have said I would rather win a cup than finish 5th even though they both have the same end result, Europa League. The cup as I said is more glamorous as it gives the fans a day out and the glory of some silverware for the club. How have you possibly misunderstood any of what I wrote? lol
bluewally
Player Valuation: £8m
Takes over regular top 5 contender
Spends 80m
Turns them into bottom half club
Not his fault
Ashtonian
Banned on request
But the most important thing is it is a lot for an everton manager. The same everton who finished in european places despite not spending hardly anything.
generally yes City have spent more than us but they are on a higher playing field, i just look at martinez investing close to 100 million into HIS squad, how long did it take Moyes to invest that amount without selling his first team players? Im not doign a moyes vs martinez piece here, the moyes bit is irelevant. My point is just a lot of money has gone into this team with very little departures so that 80-90 million should really be showing itself by now.
Being turned into Wigan by senor zapatos marrones!
The Esk
Player Valuation: £70m
This is the interesting point I believe. I actually think we are further away from consistently competing for a CL place than we were under much of Moyes' reign.
On the one hand we have a better first team squad, yet we do not have a management team capable of taking this squad and making us genuine competitors.
Now there's an argument that CL qualification is getting increasingly more difficult with more "monied" clubs plus a number of other clubs now benefiting from the increase in broadcasting revenues. I actually subscribe to this argument. However the impact of such is that in order to compete we not only need an enhanced squad, we actually need better coaches and management.
Thus Martinez has proven himself to be unable to compete in the PL for nigh on 24 months, yet in the future the competition levels are only going to increase. If he cannot not compete now, how can he compete in a more competitive environment?
This is why he needs to be released the moment Moshiri identifies and attracts a suitable replacement, an individual and coaching team capable of competing in the future.
I wish Martinez well, it would be fantastic if he can sign off with a FA Cup win, but he's not the man to take us forward into an even tougher environment than the one he is currently struggling in.
The walking contradiction that is Roberto Martinez, by Brownie
When you’re in a situation, you don’t have time to think. So I thought to myself, “Don’t think”.
A little over 12 months ago, I wrote an article in a state of confusion (as is often the case when writing about Everton), trying to figure out what exactly was the plan for Roberto Martinez’s side. Where were we going? How long would it take for the Martinez philosophy to shine through? I bemoaned the absence of Osman and Pienaar, entreating Roberto to sign a similar type to fill the gaping hole of our left hand side with a new injection of creativity. Since then we’ve had Naismith, Kone, and now Cleverley. Naismith and Kone in particular weren’t exactly, let’s say, enjoyed by the fans during their respective stints in the wide left berth, but you can see the logic in their inclusion. Both intelligent players, both good at finding space and receiving the ball with their back to goal – qualities we were lacking elsewhere on the pitch at the time. Both also, though, with obvious weaknesses: Naismith’s propensity to give the ball away under little pressure; Kone’s distinct lack of mobility. Nor were either capable defensively, as you might expect from strikers playing out wide. They were stop gap solutions for a long-term problem, not the answer. (As an aside here, I think you have to give credit to Martinez for finding a way to score goals with this team – it could very easily have become impotent, even allowing for his gung-ho style)
So in comes Tom Cleverley, the all-rounder, the Manchester United-schooled pass-turn-pass master of the simple. A decent player, no doubt, and one who made an immediate difference with his capacity for teamwork and genuine link play, along with – who knew – pinpoint accurate diagonal balls and a strange corner-taking technique that seems to work well on occasion. But he’s not Steven Pienaar. He doesn’t provide inspiration, or ideas. He doesn’t force opponents to stand off him, knowing that if they don’t he’ll spin them and open up the game. He doesn’t feebly collapse from an arm in the back to win freekicks. We don’t have anyone like Pienaar in the squad – Roberto said so himself. Yet now he’s fit he can’t get in the side. Maybe it’s just age, maybe it’s a new direction for the team. Maybe the plan’s always been to eventually have three out-and-out forwards and Niasse will be the one on the left. Or maybe Cleverley’s there to stay and we’ve just been unlucky in three quarters of our games this season.
Watching us play West Brom away earlier in the season – the first game Stones was out injured – I remember thinking we’d do well to get through the next few games without completely crumbling, and I was fearing the worst at two-nil down. We had no set way of playing whatsoever; Jagielka and Funes Mori would get the ball and spoon it upfield to no one in particular and wait for it to come back. We were being dominated by West Brom. Then Rom rolled in with support from Kone and Deulofeu and we won the game. It was reminiscent of Martinez’s first season: no one really seems to know what’s going on but somehow we’ve scored some goals and won the game. Since then we’ve seem some excellent away performances, sans Stones, and kept a few clean sheets to boot. But then we had some excellent away performances last season too, with Stones playing a vital part. What we haven’t had though are the away-style counter-attack games at home. Whether that’s a deliberate change of tactics on our part or simply opposition sides coming to Goodison and letting us have the ball is difficult to say with any certainty, but I’d lean towards the latter. Swansea, Leicester, West Brom – all have set up to allow us to have possession, confident in the expectation that we’ll give it away and concede chances. That’s the problem with having a side built to play on the counter try to play possession: the players don’t know what to do when they can’t just run forwards. Pienaar knew what to do, so did Osman, but they’re not in the side. Stones is made to look even worse than his admittedly poor performances suggest, so he’s out too.
In short, we’re no nearer knowing exactly what sort of team Martinez is trying to create. He says he wants possession and control, but selects players that aren’t good in possession and relieves them of positional responsibility. He says he wants to play on the front foot, yet we don’t press until the opposition get to the halfway line. Managers saying one thing and doing another is nothing new, far from it, but I don’t think I’ve come across one that’s quite so mystifyingly contradictory as Roberto. He’s supposed to have an identity, a philosophy, a set of values from which he never wavers. A clear, definite style of play is the aim, married with a tactical flexibility that allows you to change your approach mid-game. Right now I’d struggle to tell you what our style of play is, and most of the times we’ve made a tactical change during a game it’s been for the worse. Against Arsenal most recently, we looked clueless, ending the game with no recognisable structure at all. The players look lost.
If I could look into a crystal ball and see the progress we’d make in the next three years, with Roberto proudly leading the best possession-football side in the league to glory in 2019, of course I’d happily suffer in the short term for the long term gain. But the signs just aren’t there. We look like a side in need of an overhaul, when we’re supposed to be on the cusp of greatness. Even with the prospect of investment and a cup semi on the horizon, the mood amongst the fans is subdued. We just don’t know what to make of it. There’s no conviction, no direction; nothing, really, to get behind. It could be that that’s a symptom of modern football – apathy seems to be quite normal for much of the Premier League – but when you see other clubs making history, with fans fully immersed in the adventure, it’s harder to accept the flat-line dullness of mediocrity.
What we need, more than anything, is some fire. A booming voice to unite the club, with a message of where we are going, and how we’re going to get there. Some real leadership. Has Roberto got that in him? If he hasn’t, we could be in for a big summer.
The post The walking contradiction that is Roberto Martinez appeared first on GrandOldTeam.
not much to argue with. I don't think we can afford to wait another season...or two for a maybe it'll all come good, the mythical 'Oxford Moment'
the rs, city, untd, Chelsea are all going to have to rebuild, but with new managers and a summer window, they won't be as poor as they were.
Arsenal are always one march dip in form away from true greatness.
This season could've been our, sorry to say it, Leicester moment. had the correct direction been taken, ego's wound back, the odd pragmatic pill taken before meals, etc. etc.
all we've done is exchange one dour inflexible guy, for a cheerful inflexible guy.
sin miedo - without fear, yeah right.
sin una pista - without a clue more like.
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Maybe the whole debate could be sectioned off now.
I'd suggest these threads; 'vent about how much you hate him', 'discuss how much time you'd personally give him' 'debate how long you think he will be given' and the big one.. 'what are acceptable goals and aims that we can judge him by?'
It might help to have a 'I'll hate him forever along with anyone who has ever wronged super Kev' thread.
And maybe you are only allowed to post on one thread.
We will never know what Moyes could have done with that amount of money in such a short space of time,there you go Ash. happy to agree
Sentinel
Player Valuation: £8m
Relatively speaking for an Everton manager it is a lot. But can you really say during the last three years, factoring in premiership club spends it's significant? It's going back to that table again, which states you only finish were your wage allows. Has Martinez under-achieved of course he has. But not in Kenwright's eyes, absolutely not. Look at the the growth in player values, Do we have any chance of being relegated. I'm telling you mate, he's dancing round the fountain and completely ignoring the dissatisfaction. Remember why he hired him.
deipnosophist
Player Valuation: £80m
...I like the cut of your jib
We haven't won it yet, and have been very lucky with the teams we have drawn in the previous rounds. Championing this cup run as progress is jumping the gun a bit
It's all subjective that bit! Willing to bet that a certain poster on here would say that by gaining 72 points in a season (yawn) he was closer to doing that due to the astonishing and earth shattering points gained in that season.
It all depends on the debater's narrative I guess, even if it was 2 seasons ago and since then we have gone further back in 2 seasons than we did jump forward in the first 3 under Moyes (7th, 17th and 4th) after regular bottom half finishes for many years.
Ashtonian
Banned on request
We will never know what Moyes could have done with that amount of money in such a short space of time,there you go Ash. happy to agree
lol all i mean is you look at the standard first 11 and only really jelavic and fellaini replaced by McCarthy and Lukaku. The rest has been built on to the tune of the figures mentioned, so technically that is a sound a argument as any to ask why the team are performing worse than before.
to be honest if you sit down and write all the different things then the case is damning no matter which way you look at it.
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