Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Groucho]

Winning the Cup would prove that Martinez is misunderstood genius. And in my eyes he would instantly deserve atleast a season. Atleast.

Finners, love ya lots but I'll have to disagree on that one mate.

 

[willo30]

Lets say we drew someone decent in the 3rd round of the cup and bombed out, would that on it's own be enough for him to go? NO

Lets say we play poorly in the semi and get turned over, would that on it's own be enough for him to go? NO

Lets say we win the cup, would that on it's own be enough for him to stay? NO

When making a decision if any is to be made then his whole tenure needs to be looked at. The whole 3 years. He needs to answer why he can get 72 points one season and then a lot less next. The board need to know what changed and what needs doing. Throwing new players at it isn't going to fix this when our team is packed out with international as it is.

 

[Ashtonian]

So, just to summarise, the main message is...

"Get out of the club, Martinez. And take your record points totals and Wembley appearances with you. You've been here three seasons and there's no Champions league trophy...and you've had £40m to spend".

Take a look in the mirror lads. How did it get to this point? When did the Geordiefication happen?

@davek

Swap Martinez for Hughes mate, exactly same description.

means you have Mark Hughes and stoke directly comparable to Martinez and Everton.

In your words like

 

[Thomasc]

The most frustrating part for me is that we could still get a top 8 finish and win the cup, which when you add the silverware to it would mean a good end to the season. But most sensible people know that due to his inability to manage the players properly we most likely won't.

He will continue to do what he has done for 2 full seasons now and bomb massively and not get the best out of the tools available to him.

 

[oldblue]

This is the interesting point I believe. I actually think we are further away from consistently competing for a CL place than we were under much of Moyes' reign.

On the one hand we have a better first team squad, yet we do not have a management team capable of taking this squad and making us genuine competitors.

Now there's an argument that CL qualification is getting increasingly more difficult with more "monied" clubs plus a number of other clubs now benefiting from the increase in broadcasting revenues. I actually subscribe to this argument. However the impact of such is that in order to compete we not only need an enhanced squad, we actually need better coaches and management.

Thus Martinez has proven himself to be unable to compete in the PL for nigh on 24 months, yet in the future the competition levels are only going to increase. If he cannot not compete now, how can he compete in a more competitive environment?

This is why he needs to be released the moment Moshiri identifies and attracts a suitable replacement, an individual and coaching team capable of competing in the future.

I wish Martinez well, it would be fantastic if he can sign off with a FA Cup win, but he's not the man to take us forward into an even tougher environment than the one he is currently struggling in.

We were certainly closer to the Champion's League most years under Moyes but I can't pretend the prospect of a one off campaign playing the very best in Europe in a league didn't make me pretty nervous too.
Martinez's stint has at least made me feel like we be could taking on most without an inferiority complex.
I'm obviously on ropey ground suggesting there is clear evidence of this from net results in the league but it has grown from feeling like we believe genuine class belongs here. I probably have similar doubts about Martinez's ability to create a balanced enough team to consistently do well but I've not seen enough to convince me at a higher level he'll be less then we need let alone a liability.
Behind all this is the sense I want a school of science Everton not a Dogs Of War because I think that's what will bring talent here. Although a Dogs Of War mentality would be nice at times too. Just don't tell anyone.

 

[TheFinnFan]

Finners, love ya lots but I'll have to disagree on that one mate.

No problem mate. Ive given him 5 games.

 

[Ashtonian]

The most frustrating part for me is that we could still get a top 8 finish and win the cup, which when you add the silverware to it would mean a good end to the season. But most sensible people know that due to his inability to manage the players properly we most likely won't.

He will continue to do what he has done for 2 full seasons now and bomb massively and not get the best out of the tools available to him.

Think that is the running thing.

Personally i'm happy with that result for the season. For all his misdemeanors as manager, you would settle for 8th and a cup at the beginning of the season. I would call that a basis for next season and hope we kick on.

the problem lies in possibly losing against United has us below Swansea (relegation candidates not long ago), Bournemouth, Watford (both promoted), West Brom to name a few. When these teams have a chance of finishing above you, then you need to ask questions.

 

[eddy]

You wanna have a go at Martinez, fine, I'm with you. You want to know the root of the problem. Look at the board, it's not Moyes or Martinez that has caused the disharmony. Kings Dock, Destination Kirkby, remember that? Caused the biggest strife in our club in living memory. There's one man who's responsible for it. Send your grievances to him. And you know what, he's laughing, not just because of the price he got for his shares but because, he knows full well. Got you down to a tee. If we win the FA Cup come May, all this will be gone.

No it wont. Martinez will have presided over the club and achieved the lowest points tally in the clubs history. Yes the cup would be great
but it does not change the fact Martinez is way out of his depth managing this great football club.

When I look at Blackburn, Villa, Leeds, even Liverpool who have blown over 300 million on players I think we need to wait before critising Kenwright.
He has always said he would sell to the `right buyer`, we have to wait and see if Moshiri is the right buyer. He is making all the right noises and if we end up with a new stadium, investment into the team this summer, then I think Kenwright will be seen as having been great for the club, rather than the disaster that is happening with villa.

 

[Groucho]

No problem mate. Ive given him 5 games.

It's more a concern that the league is somehow not at the top of his list of priorities.

A cup would be fantastic, even the league cup would've been good enough, BUT not at the expense of the league. I'm not expecting to win it, but I wasn't hoping for (what's looking like) two consecutive lower half seasons.

 

[Mally77]

The board have been an issue as they have just been happy to stay in the premier league. With little or no cash injection during most of their time in charge, the prize money from staying in the division has kept them happy. This is why managers aren't under pressure to win a trophy, finish top 4 or even in a Europa league position. Surely now with Morishi on board this mind set has to change. If, as suggested, he will be supplying us with a decent transfer kitty, we now have to change our ambitions from mid table to top 6 in the league, from getting to semi finals to winning cups. Expectations changed when moyes took us from relegation battles to the top 6 and we were disappointed when we missed out on Europe, surely now with the billionaire on board our ambitions should change again. Why should we be happy with a mid table finish?

 

[The Esk]

It's all subjective that bit!

Well let's look at it objectively:

Here's how many points we were off qualifying for CL play off (4th place) for the last 10 years:

2006/7 - 10 points
2007/8 - 11 points
2008/9 - 5 points
2009/10 - 9 points
2010/11 - 14 points
2011/12 - 13 points
2012/13 - 10 points
2013/14 - 7 points
2014/15 - 23 points
2015/16 - 13 points after 29 games. (-17 points predicted for full season)

 

[eddy]

What sort of reaction will there be on here if we lost the Semi final? It is all people keep defending martinez with it seems, winning the cup, win the cup, if he wins the cup etc

Imagine if west ham or united beat us AGAIN this season? not even a final this season then.

Imagine if they beat us in the fashion that they and others have beaten us, the usual sit back hit them on the break win 3-2 or 5-4
as under Martinez we are lost at sea with our defence

 

[degsy]

His system with FBs is not to always have them flying up the line. As said he's varied it with at least one more conservative FB...and the introduction again of Lennon in the team makes us effectively sounder on the right if Coleman is the one tasked with getting up deep into the opposition half.

There's some utter bollocks talked about how Martinez is too rigid. There's criticisms that re legitimate concerning his prolonged perseverance with Howard and Stones, but most if it is just unthinking nonsense.

That davek eh, never found a straw he wouldn't clutch at

“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it."

like it or not the writing is on the wall

 

[davek]

@davek

Swap Martinez for Hughes mate, exactly same description.

means you have Mark Hughes and stoke directly comparable to Martinez and Everton.

In your words like

How on earth did you come up with a comparison between Hughes and Martinez?!

Hughes: wasted a fortune at City and then achieved nothing with Fulham and walked before he was sacked, then he was sacked by QPR, and now he's done nothing at Stoke.

Martinez: won a trophy at a hillbilly club spending ten bob; went to Everton and recorded a club PL points record and has us in two cup semi finals with more to come.

Yeah, 'exactly the same'...how can people not see it....*sigh*

 

[eddy]

Lets say we drew someone decent in the 3rd round of the cup and bombed out, would that on it's own be enough for him to go? NO

Lets say we play poorly in the semi and get turned over, would that on it's own be enough for him to go? NO

Lets say we win the cup, would that on it's own be enough for him to stay? NO

When making a decision if any is to be made then his whole tenure needs to be looked at. The whole 3 years. He needs to answer why he can get 72 points one season and then a lot less next. The board need to know what changed and what needs doing. Throwing new players at it isn't going to fix this when our team is packed out with international as it is.

Good shout this, basically he inherited a solid defence and neglected it