Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[degsy]

Has this irrational loud minority fume still not ended?

is that the 30 something% minority fume or the 60 something% fume...I've lost count, are you a plotter, acolyte or fence sitter

 

[bluewally]

^^^ a comparative study worth continuing whenever Hughes notches up 72 points in the PL or ever actually wins anything.

Whats bobby won at Everton?

72 points is irrelevant. 5th is the same as 15th

 

[degsy]

Keep rocking side to side and comforting yourself with that mantra mate. The outcome you seek isn't remotely on the horizon.

one of us is wrong...*shrugs.

 

[davek]

No David, I am saying if we wish to compete at the highest levels we can only do so by improving our management and coaching resources. Moyes could never do it (we both agree there) and Martinez is even less capable of doing it in a more competitive environment. Thus he regrettably has to go.

Unless we are happy to remain also rans ?

Your point only makes sense if we have the same financial backing in the future as we've had under Moyes and Martinez. But we wont, we'll have more. And that means neither you or I have any idea what Martinez can do with more cash.

Just to highlight that point, and for the sake of argument, who are this management team you have in mind that would come in now, as is, and better what Martinez (or Moyes for that matter) did with this present level of financial backing?

 

[bluestevon]

Been saying it all season mate that we need to play with a flatter back four. We stumbled into that early in the season through injury when we had Galloway and browning in the FB berths. Browning was injured and Galloway unjustifiably dropped for the outrageously over rated Baines. Then a couple of months back we again played flatter with Oviedo in there aft Baines was injured. The defence was much sounder. Oviedo then gets injured and we're back to the wingback problem again.

I think Martinez gets the message, but injuries are allowing only periodic corrections to the problem.

In all league games this is how they have played mate
Oviedo has played 10 games we have conceded 14 in those games = `1.4 goals conceded per game
Galloway has played 15 games we have conceded 24 goals in those games = 1.6 goals conceded per game
Baines has played in 10 games we have cocneded 14 goals in those games = 1.4 goals conceded per game

Care to explain how the defence was sounder Dave when Baines wasn't playing when we have cocneded the exact same amount of goals per game when Oviedo played and considerably more when galloway played?

Other little stat, we have conceded 3 or more goals once with Baines in the team, twice when Oviedo has been in the team and three times when Galloway has been playing.

Be interested to see how you spin this one

 

[davek]

Whats bobby won at Everton?

72 points is irrelevant. 5th is the same as 15th

Oh, so his Wigan record is off the table now? I get confused as to when it's allowed and when it isn't.

 

[deipnosophist]

This is the interesting point I believe. I actually think we are further away from consistently competing for a CL place than we were under much of Moyes' reign.

On the one hand we have a better first team squad, yet we do not have a management team capable of taking this squad and making us genuine competitors.

Now there's an argument that CL qualification is getting increasingly more difficult with more "monied" clubs plus a number of other clubs now benefiting from the increase in broadcasting revenues. I actually subscribe to this argument. However the impact of such is that in order to compete we not only need an enhanced squad, we actually need better coaches and management.

Thus Martinez has proven himself to be unable to compete in the PL for nigh on 24 months, yet in the future the competition levels are only going to increase. If he cannot not compete now, how can he compete in a more competitive environment?

This is why he needs to be released the moment Moshiri identifies and attracts a suitable replacement, an individual and coaching team capable of competing in the future.

I wish Martinez well, it would be fantastic if he can sign off with a FA Cup win, but he's not the man to take us forward into an even tougher environment than the one he is currently struggling in.

R Martinez totally lacks the nous to be at the managerial level he currently enjoys. He is very slowly (too slowly) 'learning on the job'. I am possibly less kind toward him as regards his future. I see him as a brown-nosing, glad-handing shill to the inept Board that hired him.
In saying this, I must hold my hand up and say I was a 'Pro-R Martinez' to begin with. But the evidences of his managerial incapability support the conclusion of his being waaaaay out of his depth.
Evidence has, (over his PL tenureship)provided unequivocal conclusion that he is under-equipped for the job he's paid handsomely to fulfil.

As I said, I was, three years ago, pro R Martinez.
But as John Maynard Keynes, in responding to select committee criticism for his monetary position flip-flop during the Great Depression, retorted : “When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?”

Well, my information has changed ...and so have my conclusions...

 

[Groucho]

...so what would winning our first trophy for 21 years represent then?

I agree, and I've not wavered on this, that I'd love the FA Cup. The cup, his second, would represent a decent cup manager.

However, shouldn't we be doing well in both the league and cups? I'm concerned that he neglects the league, that's all. For example, this is hardly impressive, league-wise;

 

[Ashtonian]

^^^ a comparative study worth continuing whenever Hughes notches up 72 points in the PL or ever actually wins anything.

Considering your case and point of Martinez 'winning something' resulted in relegation at the same time, kinda takes the shine off the achievement mate.

What i will take from it though is that Mark Hughes in similar circumstances has his worse stoke team performing BETTER than Martinez's everton team. More points, better results, until February even beat us in successive games. To take a team above Everton and perform better with a worse squad? For more than one season as well?! not just a one off (*cough* like 72 point seasons *cough*).

who cares what Hughes did at city or Fulham. The only time that is comparable is now, the same time as Martinez, and it looks like out of the two, Hughes is the better manager.

 

[oldblue]

No David, I am saying if we wish to compete at the highest levels we can only do so by improving our management and coaching resources. Moyes could never do it (we both agree there) and Martinez is even less capable of doing it in a more competitive environment. Thus he regrettably has to go.

Unless we are happy to remain also rans ?

If we look around the managers currently in the Premier League though who is displaying a clear ability to guarantee they do regularly compete without seemingly endless resources.
It looks promising for Spurs and maybe Southampton but I'd say the jury is out.
I do agree that we need the right level of consistent coaching through every level that sees players coming through who know what's needed and how we play. Can't help feeling that the manager and now the board have this as their goal. But we are definitely in transition and who knows if they are competent to do this. I'm more convinced than I was this time last year that we'll get there. And if we replace Martinez any time soon I'd want to be very sure that there's a manager also focused on the future.
The calls for Mourinho worry me silly.

 

[Thomasc]

I would like to summarise the morning of this ongoing thread with the following:

1. Getting to a cup semi-final is not in any stretch of the imagination a magnificent feat, it's the luck of the draw mainly.
2. A football club have and always be measured on their league form, not their cup form.
3. Banging on like some deranged cat woman about 72 points from yesteryear is a completely worthless exercise as it stands for nothing anymore.
4. 2/3rds of representation of our fan base on here want him out.
5. As well as our own fan base, most of people in the footballing media have seen through Martinez's flannel as the season has progressed and he is now under severe scrutiny.
6. Some are willing to give him another season some are not, even if he does win the FA cup.
7. He has a worst PL record than Tony Pulis, despite managing Everton for 3 full seasons, a luxury Mr Pulis has never been afforded.
8. Most of us think it is a shame it is going or has gone this way as he seems a lovely man and it is all very disappointing after his first season.
9. Our home record is an embarrassment to the blue shirt and cannot be negated due to possibly above average (debatable) away form.
10. Comparing him to his predecessor is pretty pointless IMO as there is nothing to be gained. Moyes was good for the club at the time we needed him, had bad seasons also, but also apart from Rooney for a short space of time did not have the quality of player Martinez has been afforded and was equally as good in the transfer market as the signings of Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Jagielka, Baines, Stones etc testifies.

 

[fandjango]

...you do know what relatively means, dont you?

"
Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love. How on earth can you explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love? Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.
Albert Einstein
Tags: love

 

[bluewally]

Oh, so his Wigan record is off the table now? I get confused as to when it's allowed and when it isn't.

Im fairly sure the comparison was between Hughes at Stoke and Martinez at Everton

 

[Ashtonian]

Oh, so his Wigan record is off the table now? I get confused as to when it's allowed and when it isn't.

In fact mate, you know a manager who Martinez is comparable to?

Harry Redknapp.

His only cup won was the FA cup as he was getting relegated. Also got promotion with a championship team more than once, Roberto has only league one to hold on his CV.

so in terms of achievements as you put it, Martinez is equal to Harry Redknapp in your words

 

[Mally77]

I don't understand how we're saying that we are going to do this or going to do that? You can point to a record points total for 1 season but that was 2 seasons ago. It means nothing now! Martinez has bought some decent players I don't deny that but what else has he done? Yes we've got to 2 semi finals, lost one due to horrific subs in the 2nd leg, Turned one of the best defences in the league to one of, if not the worst in the division, spent £13.5 Mil on a player who after 2 months is still not fit. I want Everton to be the best team around but I can't see how they can do it with Martinez in charge. Unfortunately, you can tell wigan fans (no disrespect to them) that any win is a historic moment in their history but that won't wash at Everton.