Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[oldblue]

There you go attacking me for having an opinion again

Nope. Stating mine. And saying I don't agree.

 

[Eggs]

we still have games in hand over some of the teams above us.
Yes, sometimes we haven't performed and got beat, sometimes we've outperformed the opposition and still got beat.
Consistency has been our big problem this season since Bobby started sorting the defence and set pieces around Christmas, but then again everybody (except Leicester for some reason) have really struggled) should everyone sack their managers every year? That would be a wonderful world to live in, no consistency anywhere.
I have seen an improvement since Christmas even if you haven't.

....one of the first things to sort is your defence, amazing that we wait until last Christmas. The number of goals we've conceded at home is worthy of comparison with the worst sides in major European leagues. Against Arsenal we are caught again with one ball over the full back leaving the CBs exposed. Our full backs meander forward and when they do nobody sits in for them. You wouldn't see such naivity in the park on a Sunday.

 

[davek]

I agree completely that he can build a talented squad.

I question whether he can make the most of its potential/actual talent.

...well, it's no use letting him get that lot together then not allowing him to take it on. There's been no change at Everton yet. If big squad cash is around then let him have it and judge him under the new finance-to-results era which (apparently) is being ushered in. The evidence in both league and cups is there that he can make it work and he can spend wisely.

There is no requirement to change managers. Which I suppose is why we wont.

 

[nsno-chris]

First line failure: Moyes could NEVER assemble and coach quality like this. He's a dullard that would have frightened those players off....and you KNOW it.

Well bobby can't coach this squad, 4 home wins all season

Says it all really

*sigh

 

[FisherEFC]

...well, it's no use letting him get that lot together then not allowing him to take it on. There's been no change at Everton yet. If big squad cash is around then let him have it and judge him under the new finance-to-results era which (apparently) is being ushered in. The evidence in both league and cups is there that he can make it work and he can spend wisely.

There is no requirement to change managers. Which I suppose is why we wont.

If he spends big next season yet we finish bottom half again would you accept he has to go with 3 bottom half finishes out of 4?

 

[bluewally]

Nope. Stating mine. And saying I don't agree.

To my mind what you said is doom for the sake of it. And maybe you're so scared of being wrong that you want Martinez out just in case.

You're not interested in being part of the debate. Only in ridiculing others. You are making the discussion personal rather than a civil debate

 

[bluewally]

...well, it's no use letting him get that lot together then not allowing him to take it on. There's been no change at Everton yet. If big squad cash is around then let him have it and judge him under the new finance-to-results era which (apparently) is being ushered in. The evidence in both league and cups is there that he can make it work and he can spend wisely.

There is no requirement to change managers. Which I suppose is why we wont.

Why can't we judge him in the finance to results era we are in now?

That is, not good enough

 

[Groucho]

...well, it's no use letting him get that lot together then not allowing him to take it on. There's been no change at Everton yet. If big squad cash is around then let him have it and judge him under the new finance-to-results era which (apparently) is being ushered in. The evidence in both league and cups is there that he can make it work and he can spend wisely.

There is no requirement to change managers. Which I suppose is why we wont.

I'm not sure the evidence is there for the league though.

In his first season, we combibed his attacking style with a side that was defensively well-drilled by the previous manager. Best of both worlds, if you like.

Now that the defensive influence has dissipated, we find ourselves heading for two consecutive lower league finishes. That's not good evidence of a good league manager, for me.

I suspect that his 5th place finish was slightly (not entirely) to do with the way the side had been trained previously.

I'm not advocating a return for Moyes though.

 

[bluestevon]

Not really, at the end of the day Bobby will go, sacked/mutual consent/another job/retire. I confidently predict it will happen sometime in the next 20 years.
What we have from day one is a bunch of 'supporters' who from day one demanding he be sacked, for no footballing reason at all, just because they want to be able to say they always knew he was rubbish from day1 (and some RS fans wanting to derail us in the same way we post on RAWK to derail them).
Over time they amplify every negative about the Club hoping to speed up his departure. Circumstances occur and some in the wider fanbase go off the manager over time, this is only natural, some will always look for the greener grass if they think things are stagnating.
We have now got to a point that whenever we win, it's written off as 'papering over the cracks and we can have a thoroughly toxic Home environment that the players don't like playing in. When we lose (no matter the reason) its days of insults against Bobby and the team.
A new manager isn't going to solve anything as the hate cycle will only start again and our better players will leave without Bobby.

Codswollop mate, broadly categorising everyone who would like to see martinez replaced in those terms. First season was absolutely great by him - until near the end when we choked and the first strange decisions where made by him - such as resting Mccarthy for a crucial game etc.

Since then he has still had some good moments - notably in the transfer market and his ability to sell his project to young players, the problem then arises when those young 19/20 yo lads start getting a bit odler and a bit wiser though and realise that the 'project' he sold them 2 years on looks further away than ever from reaching its goal - thats when they start looking for to jump ship.

Did i want Martinez initially - nope - but can easily vault me for my opinion of him throughout the first season and you will see i was well behind what he was doing, that season he opened the team up and we played some great stuff at times and all from a really solid base, the sad thing is it is now painfully apparent that for Martinez that season was the perfect storm, he inheritted a team which was excpetionally well drilled in the one area of the game he is totally incapable of sorting - defending, so he could play this expansive open football and most of the time it worked, soon as his training and coaching has taken full hold with the players we are seeing the true reflection of martinez as a manager, fundamentally flawed and incapable of change, for that reason alone hes got to go really.

Will make a prediciton as well, should Martinez take over a team like West Brom or another team with a well drilled defensive structure in place and he kept the majority of the defence together - then in his first season in charge he would have them performing to a level that would see them hailed as being much improved and see them finish higher up than previously, then after that season they would plummet down to a worse position in following seasons

 

[The Esk]

We effectively are looking at an Aston Villa situation and I've said as much before. Reading Villa Talk forum there were a number of villa fans who didn't want Lambert sacked on the basis of him "building a team" "signing Benteke" etc. They then continued to be midtable year after year, losing any top player they had whilst unable to replace them with like for like quality due to not being in the challenge for European football. (Sound familiar right now in regards to Lukaku, Stones?).

Time they got rid of Lambert it was too late and relegation was slowly beckoning. Looking at this season, can you honestly say we wouldn't be looking behind our shoulders at the bottom 3 places if we took Roms goals out the side?

For me this is a crucial moment in our history and future and I just pray Moshiri is aware of this/ambitious enough to keep our best players and not listen to luvvy Bill Kenwright.

I think to compare us to Villa is not right. Sure we are under-performing, but I think you are taking the criticisms too far.

 

[davek]

Is managing a competitive decline whilst having the most talented squad we have had in 30 years.

"Competitive decline" - from what to what? From being a success to being a failure? I must have missed that spectacular decline, because I was under the impression that Moyes achieved precisely sweet f.a. while he was here. We did nothing of consequence in his 11 years.

...and...

"Competitive decline" - from PL seasons where we never troubled 70 points whatsoever in donkeys years to one where we surpassed that mark - which any manager we have will have to match and shift further on to get a CL spot? Or a decline from winning cups to not winning cups - when we have a very decent chance this season to actually win something with a manager who wont concede defeat before any big match is played.



As said thus far: your critique of Martinez hits the rocks when attempting to justify exactly why Martinez should be judged by criteria NEVER used on any of his predecessors. Your best shot seems to be to suggest Martinez has assembled a great squad that he should have turned more performances into gold with. It's a p.o.v that was also at large when Moyes also had "the best squad since the 80s'" to manage when he was here...and never had the hysterical reaction for dismissal that Martinez faces on a forum like this.

Double standards. It's not a very good basis to argue anything form.

 

[oldblue]

You're not interested in being part of the debate. Only in ridiculing others. You are making the discussion personal rather than a civil debate

Seriously? Basically what you've said is someone else's opinion isn't part of the debate because you don't like it. If you don't want to discuss it because it's not how you want to discuss it then fair enough. If I don't agree with your opinion on this then how is it any more personal than you not agreeing with mine. Or is stopping other people posting how you win an argument?
Just quick read through will see people who want to stick with the manager being called deluded, naive, blind, masochists, happy clappers. If you think someone saying that I think the idea there's nothing on the horizon is doom ridden is shutting a debate down then as I say I'd suggest that's projection. And my point is that I like my football unpredictable. You don't agree. Then debate that.

 

[The Esk]

"Competitive decline" - from what to what? From being a success to being a failure? I must have missed that spectacular decline, because I was under the impression that Moyes achieved precisely sweet f.a. while he was here. We did nothing of consequence in his 11 years here.

...and...

"Competitive decline" - from PL seasons where we never troubled 70 points whatsoever in donkeys years to one where we surpassed that mark - which any manager we have will have to match and shift further on to get a CL spot? Or a decline from winning cups to not winning cups - when we have a very decent chance this season to actually win something with a manager who wont concede defeat before any big match is played.



As said thus far: your critique of Martinez hits the rocks when attempting to justify exactly why Martinez should be judged by criteria NEVER used on any of his predecessors. Your best shot seems to be to suggest Martinez has assembled a great squad that he should have turned more performances into gold with. It's a p.o.v that was also at large when Moyes also had "the best squad since the 80s'" to manage when he was here...and never had the hysterical reaction for dismissal that Martinez faces on a forum like this.

Double standards. It's not a very good basis to argue anything form.

I don't do double standards Dave, you should know that by now. My argument is simple and consistent - Martinez does not possess all the skills to have us consistently competing for CL places. In order to do so (which is the standard I believe we should be operating) we need to change the manager.

 

[davek]

What's unreasoned about it Dave.

It's not ok to just write off league performance because we might win the cup.

Just because you value points over positions doesn't make it so

As has been pointed out before these young developing players were all a part of the above record points haul so why have they gone backwards under 2 more years of Bobbys guidance

The same commentators who applauded our performances are finally seeing past the illusion and questioning Martinez but you then write them off as hacks or has beens

In the league cup we were knocked out by the first decent team we came across.

I hope we do win the FA cup. With a bit of luck we will.

However it's no indicator of progress. There's no rational way you can make that leap.

The only true indicator of season to season progress is the league and it hasn't been good enough. You attempt to whitewash this away but it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Our first silverware in 21 years, our first consecutive bottom half finishes since Walter Smith got sacked.

...so you respond to my request for balance by just giving more imbalance.

Great.

 

[bizzaro]

I think to compare us to Villa is not right. Sure we are under-performing, but I think you are taking the criticisms too far.

It is a very good analogy. They were in a similar competitive range as us only 5 -> 6 years ago.

We should make sure we do not go their way.

They had a significant investor: Randy Lerner (investor in the loosest definition of the word) who focused too much on spending on player acquisitions and not enough on adding capacity to Villa Park and not enough on matching their player acquisitions with commercial revenue.

They then also had a managerial revolving door.


We should absolutely not do what they have.

We should be more structured and focused in our approach.

All about quality. All about maximum return and improvement for every £ we spend.