Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[bluestevon]

It's so wrong though.
How can EVERY victory or good performance mean nothing?

In a developing team, it isn't purely black or white.

OK mate, for me every Victory is starting to feel bitter sweet, because it just shows the talewnt this team has that is being sadly mismanaged, do they still make me happy - ofc they do, but to make out anythign more would be papering over the cracks as some have said

Are we develpping really?

Jagielka, Baines - both started at the last world cup, one won't go this Euro's and one won't start, Stones Martinez had developed him initially very well, got him lauded and in the england team - but now he's slipping down the pecking order and almost certainly will find Cahill ahead of him come the summer - don't think many will argue that stones is in serious danger of regressign and has been all season. Barkley - developed him well but spent one year playing him everywhere on the pitch he could try and not sure if that helped him - now been overtaken by Ali comforrtably as far as on the international stage goes

Mirallas - Belgium itnernational played most games at the world cup - cant get into the belgium squad now

Gibson and McGeady both gone from starting forIreland to hardly making the squad now and not starting when they do

thats just 7 players who could be argue have seen tehir international futures not exactly boosted masisvely or in some cases harmed

Are we showing any signs of developing a better team chemistry - would say the opposite - starting to look more and more disjointed as the seasons gone on, are we showing any signs of developing in terms of results, or in terms of fixing errors the team and players routinely make - nope not for me we arent.

So explain what progress exactly are and have we been making mate?

 

[davek]

I don't do double standards Dave, you should know that by now. My argument is simple and consistent - Martinez does not possess all the skills to have us consistently competing for CL places. In order to do so (which is the standard I believe we should be operating) we need to change the manager.

Then your belief is wrong. We've never sacked managers for not 'consistently competing for CL places'. We just haven't.

We sack managers when they've imperilled the club's status as a top flight entity. Period. We dont sack managers for getting midtable and into the latter stages of cup competitions. Maybe you can provide me with a recent example of when we did though?

Rules of engagement haven't changed just yet...not until scores of £illions are placed in the hands of an Everton manager and he's fallen short of the type of ambitions that go with that level of investment.

 

[bluewally]

Seriously? Basically what you've said is someone else's opinion isn't part of the debate because you don't like it. If you don't want to discuss it because it's not how you want to discuss it then fair enough. If I don't agree with your opinion on this then how is it any more personal than you not agreeing with mine. Or is stopping other people posting how you win an argument?
Just quick read through will see people who want to stick with the manager being called deluded, naive, blind, masochists, happy clappers. If you think someone saying that I think the idea there's nothing on the horizon is doom ridden is shutting a debate down then as I say I'd suggest that's projection. And my point is that I like my football unpredictable. You don't agree. Then debate that.

You're opinion is that the point I'm making is just for the sake of doom and gloom. How is that related to martinez

 

[ianefc]

22,000 followers you say.

Great. He must be as important as...erm...some other self publicist who has 21,000 and knows nothing.

I cant believe you;ve answered my question about that feller's authority to persuade anyone by shoving his 'followers' into the fray.

FFS. That's just hilarious tbh.

Wll in Buxie, you've persuaded me now lad.

how do you come to that conclusion?

Would you say that if everything about him was the same except he agreed with your narrative?

 

[bluewally]

Then your belief is wrong. We've never sacked managers for not 'consistently competing for CL places'. We just haven't.

We sack managers when they've imperilled the club's status as a top flight entity. Period. We dont sack managers for getting midtable and into the latter stages of cup competitions. Maybe you can provide me with a recent example of when we did though?

Rules of engagement haven't changed just yet...not until scores of £illions are placed in the hands of an Everton manager and he's fallen short of the type of ambitions that go with that level of investment.

So because we don't have a history of ambition we're not allowed to start now and should be happy with our lot?

 

[bizzaro]

We effectively are looking at an Aston Villa situation and I've said as much before. Reading Villa Talk forum there were a number of villa fans who didn't want Lambert sacked on the basis of him "building a team" "signing Benteke" etc. They then continued to be midtable year after year, losing any top player they had whilst unable to replace them with like for like quality due to not being in the challenge for European football. (Sound familiar right now in regards to Lukaku, Stones?).

Time they got rid of Lambert it was too late and relegation was slowly beckoning. Looking at this season, can you honestly say we wouldn't be looking behind our shoulders at the bottom 3 places if we took Roms goals out the side?

For me this is a crucial moment in our history and future and I just pray Moshiri is aware of this/ambitious enough to keep our best players and not listen to luvvy Bill Kenwright.

I equally say for every comparison to Villa.

We should not simply pull the trigger on this particular manager.

He's been here two and a half seasons. This year we have made two semi-final appearances the first for two years.

Relatively speaking the under performances of this team and this manager need to be systematically addressed.

Sacking the manager is not the best way to do this.

Since - to use your own analogy - that would be 'the Villa' thing to do

What we need to do is get another new keeper. Look to address why we are conceding these goals (the manager needs to do this soul searching). Plus bring in more players to replace the 5 or 6 that need to be shipped out or are going (Howard, Hibbert etc).

@davek

 

[davek]

I'm not sure the evidence is there for the league though.

In his first season, we combibed his attacking style with a side that was defensively well-drilled by the previous manager. Best of both worlds, if you like.

Now that the defensive influence has dissipated, we find ourselves heading for two consecutive lower league finishes. That's not good evidence of a good league manager, for me.

I suspect that his 5th place finish was slightly (not entirely) to do with the way the side had been trained previously.

I'm not advocating a return for Moyes though.

The 'first season was don to Moyes' line. A season when he came in and COMPLETELY changed the way we played as a defensive unit.

It's a completely bogus argument.

Why not give the feller the credit for that season?

 

[The Esk]

Then your belief is wrong. We've never sacked managers for not 'consistently competing for CL places'. We just haven't.

We sack managers when they've imperilled the club's status as a top flight entity. Period. We dont sack managers for getting midtable and into the latter stages of cup competitions. Maybe you can provide me with a recent example of when we did though?

Rules of engagement haven't changed just yet...not until scores of £illions are placed in the hands of an Everton manager and he's fallen short of the type of ambitions that go with that level of investment.

They've changed Dave because lesser teams are achieving more, and we have the playing resources to compete at CL qualification levels if those resources are used effectively.

You and I will never agree on this, so I'm going to stop here. We should be operating at a much higher level on the pitch, we've failed to do so for two years, the fault lies with the management team.

 

[oldblue]

You're opinion is that the point I'm making is just for the sake of doom and gloom. How is that related to martinez

Are you asking me how an opinion on an opinion about Martinez is about Martinez?

 

[bluewally]

The 'first season was don to Moyes' line. A season when he came in and COMPLETELY changed the way we played as a defensive unit.

It's a completely bogus argument.

Why not give the feller the credit for that season?

If it was down to him then why has he been unable to repeat it?

 

[bluewally]

Are you asking me how an opinion on an opinion about Martinez is about Martinez?

Your opinion was directly at my character and not on the debate topic

Please leave me alone

 

[davek]

I equally say for every comparison to Villa.

We should not simply pull the trigger on this particular manager.

He's been here two and a half seasons. This year we have made two semi-final appearances the first for two years.

Relatively speaking the under performances of this team and this manager need to be systematically addressed.

Sacking the manager is not the best way to do this.

Since - to use your own analogy - that would be 'the Villa' thing to do

What we need to do is get another new keeper. Look to address why we are conceding these goals (the manager needs to do this soul searching). Plus bring in more players to replace the 5 or 6 that need to be shipped out or are going (Howard, Hibbert etc).

@davek

Spot on mate. He's being held to account under conditions that his predecessors never were; at least give him the cash that would justifiably make judging him by a different criteria the correct call.

 

[ianefc]

Then your belief is wrong. We've never sacked managers for not 'consistently competing for CL places'. We just haven't.

We sack managers when they've imperilled the club's status as a top flight entity. Period. We dont sack managers for getting midtable and into the latter stages of cup competitions. Maybe you can provide me with a recent example of when we did though?

Rules of engagement haven't changed just yet...not until scores of £illions are placed in the hands of an Everton manager and he's fallen short of the type of ambitions that go with that level of investment.

Didn't Walter smith get sacked when we reached the FA Cup QF and were 15th in the league, where we could be next time we play.

 

[davek]

how do you come to that conclusion?

Would you say that if everything about him was the same except he agreed with your narrative?

He's just another voice.

If I take to twitter and hand you and thousands of "followers" my view, does that make me a sage too?

 

[bluewally]

Spot on mate. He's being held to account under conditions that his predecessors never were; at least give him the cash that would justifiably make judging him by a different criteria the correct call.

He's had enough cash

Why would you put large amounts of cash into the hands of a man who's only finished in the top half once in his career