Roberto Martinez discussion

[squonk]

TL;DR

Why do you hate the manager so much?

at least do him the courtesy of reading his in depth analysis of where he feels we can improve before than coming out with a pathetic comment like that.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

Brave decisions are starting your best players rather than putting out lineups designed to do nothing but stifle the game then try and win it from the bench. That's what he did first season. It was McCarthy Barry Barkley boring everyone to sleep for 45 mins then he'd bring on Osman or Pienaar to find a way to break the team down. Second season he did the same but had no options off the bench and injuries so we were just conceding but had no way to turn it round. This season it's been a mixture of both, beaten by United and City before the subs could do anything, settling for draws v Liverpool and Spurs rather than making bolder substitutions to win the game, and throwing Hail Marys against Warford and West Brom to claw back points that looked beyond us.

We've started with a correct first 11 twice this season v Southampton and Chelsea (I'll give Martinez the benefit of the doubt that Besic would have got a hattrick) . We were at it from the off with the correct tactics and everyone up to speed. In every other game though we've come out looking half asleep in the first half and that includes the cup games. We've conceded first loads of times home and away to poor sides. A top manager should put out the correct team more than 50% of the time. You should have a clear way of playing, an 11 you trust, and a confidence and consistency in performance at home. We have none of these things. Martinez will not budge his midfield two but considers the wide spots to be a free for all open to whoever comes out of the bingo that week. Kone and Cleverley bizarrely started the season over Mirallas and Del. once Kone hits s bit of form he disappears to be replaced by Deulofeu who is flying until one bad half v Liverpool and he loses his spot to Lennon. Is any of this ridiculous musical chairs doing any of them any good? I won't even get into Naismith and Barkley playing out of position. Meanwhile Gibson and Mirallas who I consider to be two of our top players are sat on the bench for the biggest games of the season. Why, after coming on against WBA and producing arguably our best football of the season, was Gibson not brought on v Spurs and Liverpool? Why is Mirallas one of our top players not starting over Naismith who is out of position. Why is Gareth Barry playing every game at the age of 35? Why is Howard allowed to stay in goal error after error whilst Robles was axed after three clean sheets?

These are not brave decisions. It is boring conservative safety first dirgeball that occasionally gets exciting when Martinez is forced to go all in. We could be playing like the second half of WBA most weeks but Martinez refuses to play the necessary combinations to play this way unless he is two down.

Think about it, the best football we've seen under Martinez has been the exact opposite of the philosophy he spouts. A plethora of direct free kicks, Barkley running the length of the pitch, Gibson finding Deulofeu with a spayed ball who crosses for Lukaku to head in, long balls from back to front that Lukaku has got on the end of, our counterattacking in Europe. Martinez does not even promote this, it's the opposite of his slow measured build up keeping possession and bringing the full backs into play. Nearly every match we try this for 60 mins, realise we're getting nowhere, sack it off, and just go gung ho for a result. It's crazy crazy football and has only worked (when it does work which is not often enough) because Everton has very good players and an exceptional defence personnel wise (of course Martinez deserves half the credit for this). If he played this way with a mid table team they would go down (as Wigan did).

Start the right team from the start and show you can win games at home in a consistent manner. That is what brave top managers do, not making themselves out to be tactical geniuses for saving games when it is they who botch the starting 11 every week.

Here you go fella you dropped this in the Barkley thread trying to cram in you normal nonsense about Barry and McCarthy..

 

[davek]

Ive explained my reasoning why I believe that came about multiple times. Considering the squad he has compared to previous managers he should be aiming for that anyway. If he can show that he can maintain this level of performance I'll be proven wrong and will be happy to have been believe me. If he continues to produce what I believe he is producing then I will continue to believe my theory behind his first season.

But he proved in one fell swoop as soon as he arrived that he was fit to be Everton's manager, and then some.

The only gripe those few doubters should have now is to demand that the first season level of performance return. That would be a legitimate call, imo. To say he's not fit to be Everton's manager when he's in his third season and responsible for at least maintaining standards overall cant be seen as credible.

 

[ilikecheese]

at least do him the courtesy of reading his in depth analysis of where he feels we can improve before than coming out with a pathetic comment like that.

Soz...not reading all of that. I'll wait for the CliffsNotes version.

 

[Saint Domingo]

But he proved in one fell swoop as soon as he arrived that he was fit to be Everton's manager, and then some.

The only gripe those few doubters should have now is to demand that the first season level of performance return. That would be a legitimate call, imo. To say he's not fit to be Everton's manager when he's in his third season and responsible for at least maintaining standards overall cant be seen as credible.

Maybe I should have specified my opinion then that I don't think he's a good enough manager to take Everton to where I want them to be, the top 4, or at least consistently properly challenge it.

The point you are making is what I am saying. I doubted the first season and am unsure he can replicate that consistently for a number of reasons.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Here you go fella you dropped this in the Barkley thread trying to cram in you normal nonsense about Barry and McCarthy..

Thanks mate I was looking for that, got a few more dissertations I need to write on the subject for those who still consider playing a 35 year old for 38 games a season a great idea beyond reproach or even discussion.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

Thanks mate I was looking for that, got a few more dissertations I need to write on the subject for those who still consider playing a 35 year old for 38 games a season a great idea beyond reproach or even discussion.

Careful now you'll break it at this rate.

 

[davek]

Maybe I should have specified my opinion then that I don't think he's a good enough manager to take Everton to where I want them to be, the top 4, or at least consistently properly challenge it.

The point you are making is what I am saying. I doubted the first season and am unsure he can replicate that consistently for a number of reasons.

Top 4 is an unreal hope now. Top 5 would be a great achievement given the disparity in funding.

 

[ilikecheese]

at least do him the courtesy of reading his in depth analysis of where he feels we can improve before than coming out with a pathetic comment like that.

Actually I did just take the time to read it and it's a load of bollocks IMO.

He has a right to his opinion I suppose, just as I do.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Top 4 is an unreal hope now. Top 5 would be a great achievement given the disparity in funding.

I disagree, a top manager could have this team top 4 in my opinion. We say the same thing every season 'top 4 is impossible' and every season one of the big 4 limps home because a few other teams shot themselves in the foot. I believe a strong Everton gets top 4 last year, a poor United beat a woeful Liverpool.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

Top 4 is an unreal hope now. Top 5 would be a great achievement given the disparity in funding.

Thanks for that Phil.

 

[catcherintherye]

Top 4 is an unreal hope now. Top 5 would be a great achievement given the disparity in funding.

I don't think top 4 is that unrealistic given how the top sides are faltering currently. However I get your point. We have about the 11th highest wage bill and find ourselves in a similar position in terms of money spent.

In that context a top half finish (between 10th to 7th) is not an outstanding performance but by no means sackable. I think thats the distinction people to struggle with. For me it isn't an either/or. Achieve all your goals or sack the manager. There is a middle ground. You can do ok, not excel but also not not under achieve enough to ensure you deserve the sack. To me sacking someone is quite a drastic action and not one I'd have for being half way up the league.

I am a big believer in continuity. In the long run chopping and changing would not benefit Everton as it doesn't benefit most teams. It costs a lot of money (when we don't have a lot) and the infrastructure we have built up would be lost. There is not much I credit the board with but I give Kenwright credit for resisting the boom and bust cycle that seems to dominate a majority of football clubs.

I always backed Moyes for that reason too. I was never delighted with his football, nor was I even that keen on the idea that all we could hope to achieve was a top 6 finish. However I don't think at any point, over a pro-longed period (of over a year/season) we underachieved enough to justify the sack. Likewise we were never massively threatened with relegation. Anyone who thinks either Moyes or Martinez have had us in a proper dogfight can't remember the days of the 90's!

The other key point in all of this though, which I have probably learnt from the Moyes time is I think I would want a manager who would have an idea/plan of some sort to get us to win things. I don't think we should just settle for a manager who guarentees us the gravy train of the premier league season after season however tempting it is.

The thing I like about Martinez (more so than his immediate results) is he has a longer term vision that he is aiming to get us challenging to win things. You can see that with him adopting a particularly attacking style, the use of that style all the way through to the youth teams and his desire to give young players an opportunity. Also his steadfast defence of keeping Stones at seemingly any cost (when many of us may have took the pragmatist line and sold).

In isolation it would be very easy to pick on any of the above things and attack him. However if you look at them as part of a wider picture what you see is a manager who is not prepared to just accept Everton as an average to decent side who will sell their best young players as soon as a top team wants them. That is what swings it for me with Martinez.

I think along the way Moyes lost hope of ever building a top team. If I ever got that sense from Martinez I would change that view too. Ultimately continuity only works if you are working towards something better and using that stability to good affect.

When I (and you/others) say 8th is ok it doesn't mean we are celebrating it. However it is acknowledging the limitations of being a club with about a quarter of the revenue of the top teams. The question isn't just about there where and now, but also have they got a plan going forward. If we can be stable in the here and now and be seen to be progressing then that will do me.

It may click this season and if it does we could finish 4th. However in 18 months, if Deulofeu, Barkley, Stones, Garbutt, Lukaku Browning and Galloway keep developing we are going to be in a really good position. Do we rally want to jettison that project? Are we real convinced there's a manager good enough to get the current crop to challenge for the title?

 

[banno]

Great Post @catcherintherye

 

[davek]

I don't think top 4 is that unrealistic given how the top sides are faltering currently. However I get your point. We have about the 11th highest wage bill and find ourselves in a similar position in terms of money spent.

In that context a top half finish (between 10th to 7th) is not an outstanding performance but by no means sackable. I think thats the distinction people to struggle with. For me it isn't an either/or. Achieve all your goals or sack the manager. There is a middle ground. You can do ok, not excel but also not not under achieve enough to ensure you deserve the sack. To me sacking someone is quite a drastic action and not one I'd have for being half way up the league.

I am a big believer in continuity. In the long run chopping and changing would not benefit Everton as it doesn't benefit most teams. It costs a lot of money (when we don't have a lot) and the infrastructure we have built up would be lost. There is not much I credit the board with but I give Kenwright credit for resisting the boom and bust cycle that seems to dominate a majority of football clubs.

I always backed Moyes for that reason too. I was never delighted with his football, nor was I even that keen on the idea that all we could hope to achieve was a top 6 finish. However I don't think at any point, over a pro-longed period (of over a year/season) we underachieved enough to justify the sack. Likewise we were never massively threatened with relegation. Anyone who thinks either Moyes or Martinez have had us in a proper dogfight can't remember the days of the 90's!

The other key point in all of this though, which I have probably learnt from the Moyes time is I think I would want a manager who would have an idea/plan of some sort to get us to win things. I don't think we should just settle for a manager who guarentees us the gravy train of the premier league season after season however tempting it is.

The thing I like about Martinez (more so than his immediate results) is he has a longer term vision that he is aiming to get us challenging to win things. You can see that with him adopting a particularly attacking style, the use of that style all the way through to the youth teams and his desire to give young players an opportunity. Also his steadfast defence of keeping Stones at seemingly any cost (when many of us may have took the pragmatist line and sold).

In isolation it would be very easy to pick on any of the above things and attack him. However if you look at them as part of a wider picture what you see is a manager who is not prepared to just accept Everton as an average to decent side who will sell their best young players as soon as a top team wants them. That is what swings it for me with Martinez.

I think along the way Moyes lost hope of ever building a top team. If I ever got that sense from Martinez I would change that view too. Ultimately continuity only works if you are working towards something better and using that stability to good affect.

When I (and you/others) say 8th is ok it doesn't mean we are celebrating it. However it is acknowledging the limitations of being a club with about a quarter of the revenue of the top teams. The question isn't just about there where and now, but also have they got a plan going forward. If we can be stable in the here and now and be seen to be progressing then that will do me.

It may click this season and if it does we could finish 4th. However in 18 months, if Deulofeu, Barkley, Stones, Garbutt, Lukaku Browning and Galloway keep developing we are going to be in a really good position. Do we rally want to jettison that project? Are we real convinced there's a manager good enough to get the current crop to challenge for the title?

We get fixated on this 4th place position. It's admirable in a way because it shows that fans refuse to let the club owners off the hook in terms of expectation. However, I do think obsession over PL position has maybe cost us in the cups in the past decade and more. Moyes may have reached a final with us but he was averse to domestic cup competition because he wanted all resources focussed on PL placing. Martinez has done nothing to buck the trend so far, but hopefully once we get Norwich out of the way at least one cup this season will be prioritised before it reaches the latter stages.

The CL spots are a chimera, imo. They'll never be attained now unless you have hundreds of millions spent on a squad which can withstand injury, slumps in form and suspensions. We are not at the races in that respect. Martinez's 72 points was a Herculean effort in modern times. And it still didn't get us within touching distance of the CL spots.

Our best route to relaunching Everton is a cup win. If it was me I'd be targeting the LC and FA Cup each season 100%, and I'd accept mid-table in the league without any problem whatsoever.

I dont get the fixation with getting a pat on the head as the 'best of the rest'. All it does in actuality is saddle you with the EL and a headache the following season.

 

[Lowste]

Brave decisions are starting your best players rather than putting out lineups designed to do nothing but stifle the game then try and win it from the bench. That's what he did first season. It was McCarthy Barry Barkley boring everyone to sleep for 45 mins then he'd bring on Osman or Pienaar to find a way to break the team down. Second season he did the same but had no options off the bench and injuries so we were just conceding but had no way to turn it round. This season it's been a mixture of both, beaten by United and City before the subs could do anything, settling for draws v Liverpool and Spurs rather than making bolder substitutions to win the game, and throwing Hail Marys against Warford and West Brom to claw back points that looked beyond us.

We've started with a correct first 11 twice this season v Southampton and Chelsea (I'll give Martinez the benefit of the doubt that Besic would have got a hattrick) . We were at it from the off with the correct tactics and everyone up to speed. In every other game though we've come out looking half asleep in the first half and that includes the cup games. We've conceded first loads of times home and away to poor sides. A top manager should put out the correct team more than 50% of the time. You should have a clear way of playing, an 11 you trust, and a confidence and consistency in performance at home. We have none of these things. Martinez will not budge his midfield two but considers the wide spots to be a free for all open to whoever comes out of the bingo that week. Kone and Cleverley bizarrely started the season over Mirallas and Del. once Kone hits s bit of form he disappears to be replaced by Deulofeu who is flying until one bad half v Liverpool and he loses his spot to Lennon. Is any of this ridiculous musical chairs doing any of them any good? I won't even get into Naismith and Barkley playing out of position. Meanwhile Gibson and Mirallas who I consider to be two of our top players are sat on the bench for the biggest games of the season. Why, after coming on against WBA and producing arguably our best football of the season, was Gibson not brought on v Spurs and Liverpool? Why is Mirallas one of our top players not starting over Naismith who is out of position. Why is Gareth Barry playing every game at the age of 35? Why is Howard allowed to stay in goal error after error whilst Robles was axed after three clean sheets?

These are not brave decisions. It is boring conservative safety first dirgeball that occasionally gets exciting when Martinez is forced to go all in. We could be playing like the second half of WBA most weeks but Martinez refuses to play the necessary combinations to play this way unless he is two down.

Think about it, the best football we've seen under Martinez has been the exact opposite of the philosophy he spouts. A plethora of direct free kicks, Barkley running the length of the pitch, Gibson finding Deulofeu with a spayed ball who crosses for Lukaku to head in, long balls from back to front that Lukaku has got on the end of, our counterattacking in Europe. Martinez does not even promote this, it's the opposite of his slow measured build up keeping possession and bringing the full backs into play. Nearly every match we try this for 60 mins, realise we're getting nowhere, sack it off, and just go gung ho for a result. It's crazy crazy football and has only worked (when it does work which is not often enough) because Everton has very good players and an exceptional defence personnel wise (of course Martinez deserves half the credit for this). If he played this way with a mid table team they would go down (as Wigan did).

Start the right team from the start and show you can win games at home in a consistent manner. That is what brave top managers do, not making themselves out to be tactical geniuses for saving games when it is they who botch the starting 11 every week.

Seems a very long winded and time wasting post, to simply say you don't like the man
I guess each to their own