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Roberto Martinez discussion

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Just to add a little to this, there's some stating that this is a top 4 quality side...

How can it be when the "core group" of players are basically 19-24 year olds and like you stated, need at least another 18months of development (along with the team being strengthened) to really see their potential over 5 years since Martinez would have taken over.

There is limited depth up front and were relying on playing Lukaku every single game and even ignoring tiredness cannot change the tactics with a different type of player there. Additionally, we have poor keepers.

How this is already a top 4 side is beyond me.

However, if they keep developing and top new players are added this could be far better than top 4....just needs another couple of years to see how far it could go and even then will have another decade out of the top players.


I don't think top 4 is that unrealistic given how the top sides are faltering currently. However I get your point. We have about the 11th highest wage bill and find ourselves in a similar position in terms of money spent.

In that context a top half finish (between 10th to 7th) is not an outstanding performance but by no means sackable. I think thats the distinction people to struggle with. For me it isn't an either/or. Achieve all your goals or sack the manager. There is a middle ground. You can do ok, not excel but also not not under achieve enough to ensure you deserve the sack. To me sacking someone is quite a drastic action and not one I'd have for being half way up the league.

I am a big believer in continuity. In the long run chopping and changing would not benefit Everton as it doesn't benefit most teams. It costs a lot of money (when we don't have a lot) and the infrastructure we have built up would be lost. There is not much I credit the board with but I give Kenwright credit for resisting the boom and bust cycle that seems to dominate a majority of football clubs.

I always backed Moyes for that reason too. I was never delighted with his football, nor was I even that keen on the idea that all we could hope to achieve was a top 6 finish. However I don't think at any point, over a pro-longed period (of over a year/season) we underachieved enough to justify the sack. Likewise we were never massively threatened with relegation. Anyone who thinks either Moyes or Martinez have had us in a proper dogfight can't remember the days of the 90's!

The other key point in all of this though, which I have probably learnt from the Moyes time is I think I would want a manager who would have an idea/plan of some sort to get us to win things. I don't think we should just settle for a manager who guarentees us the gravy train of the premier league season after season however tempting it is.

The thing I like about Martinez (more so than his immediate results) is he has a longer term vision that he is aiming to get us challenging to win things. You can see that with him adopting a particularly attacking style, the use of that style all the way through to the youth teams and his desire to give young players an opportunity. Also his steadfast defence of keeping Stones at seemingly any cost (when many of us may have took the pragmatist line and sold).

In isolation it would be very easy to pick on any of the above things and attack him. However if you look at them as part of a wider picture what you see is a manager who is not prepared to just accept Everton as an average to decent side who will sell their best young players as soon as a top team wants them. That is what swings it for me with Martinez.

I think along the way Moyes lost hope of ever building a top team. If I ever got that sense from Martinez I would change that view too. Ultimately continuity only works if you are working towards something better and using that stability to good affect.

When I (and you/others) say 8th is ok it doesn't mean we are celebrating it. However it is acknowledging the limitations of being a club with about a quarter of the revenue of the top teams. The question isn't just about there where and now, but also have they got a plan going forward. If we can be stable in the here and now and be seen to be progressing then that will do me.

It may click this season and if it does we could finish 4th. However in 18 months, if Deulofeu, Barkley, Stones, Garbutt, Lukaku Browning and Galloway keep developing we are going to be in a really good position. Do we rally want to jettison that project? Are we real convinced there's a manager good enough to get the current crop to challenge for the title?
 
We get fixated on this 4th place position. It's admirable in a way because it shows that fans refuse to let the club owners off the hook in terms of expectation. However, I do think obsession over PL position has maybe cost us in the cups in the past decade and more. Moyes may have reached a final with us but he was averse to domestic cup competition because he wanted all resources focussed on PL placing. Martinez has done nothing to buck the trend so far, but hopefully once we get Norwich out of the way at least one cup this season will be prioritised before it reaches the latter stages.

The CL spots are a chimera, imo. They'll never be attained now unless you have hundreds of millions spent on a squad which can withstand injury, slumps in form and suspensions. We are not at the races in that respect. Martinez's 72 points was a Herculean effort in modern times. And it still didn't get us within touching distance of the CL spots.

Our best route to relaunching Everton is a cup win. If it was me I'd be targeting the LC and FA Cup each season 100%, and I'd accept mid-table in the league without any problem whatsoever.

I dont get the fixation with getting a pat on the head as the 'best of the rest'. All it does in actuality is saddle you with the EL and a headache the following season.

7 points away from 4th isn't touching distance? Just thinking back that Palace game and the 3 crap draws at the start turned into wins and we'd have gotten it.
 
Getting a cup win is great.

Getting 4th place gets you £££ and better players + we already have a few good ones and now just need the icing and the cherry.


We get fixated on this 4th place position. It's admirable in a way because it shows that fans refuse to let the club owners off the hook in terms of expectation. However, I do think obsession over PL position has maybe cost us in the cups in the past decade and more. Moyes may have reached a final with us but he was averse to domestic cup competition because he wanted all resources focussed on PL placing. Martinez has done nothing to buck the trend so far, but hopefully once we get Norwich out of the way at least one cup this season will be prioritised before it reaches the latter stages.

The CL spots are a chimera, imo. They'll never be attained now unless you have hundreds of millions spent on a squad which can withstand injury, slumps in form and suspensions. We are not at the races in that respect. Martinez's 72 points was a Herculean effort in modern times. And it still didn't get us within touching distance of the CL spots.

Our best route to relaunching Everton is a cup win. If it was me I'd be targeting the LC and FA Cup each season 100%, and I'd accept mid-table in the league without any problem whatsoever.

I dont get the fixation with getting a pat on the head as the 'best of the rest'. All it does in actuality is saddle you with the EL and a headache the following season.
 
Maybe I should have specified my opinion then that I don't think he's a good enough manager to take Everton to where I want them to be, the top 4, or at least consistently properly challenge it.

The point you are making is what I am saying. I doubted the first season and am unsure he can replicate that consistently for a number of reasons.
I know lets get the special one in, oh guess what he won't come as the transfer budget is little or nothing.
If you want a top manager to get us into the top 4 on a regular basis, you are supporting the wrong team.
We have RM as simply he has the potential to move us into challenging for a top 4 spot, will he do it sadly very doubtful as spending power will always be what kills us.
A word of caution sack managers for not delivering is a dangerous path to go down, sack them when they become clueless and signings are poor - RM doesn't fall into them catergories
 
7 points away from 4th isn't touching distance? Just thinking back that Palace game and the 3 crap draws at the start turned into wins and we'd have gotten it.
Not that close though. The truth is we had a poor(ish) final month of the season and the wheels fell off a bit. That's where the squad strength come is. It's why Arsenal race through those final fixtures of most season's and get (often an unlikely) 4th spot.
 

Top 4 is a big deal and probably the only way Everton can push on in the long-term. We'll get to keep our players and will have an easier time enticing other top players to come to Everton. If we don't get it, I think Stones, Lukaku, and maybe others will want to leave. While a cup win would do wonders for Everton in the short term, I don't think it will help keep the squad together. By summer the young studs will start dreaming about Champion's League again.
 
I don't know why so many of you think this is a top four squad.

The gap in genuine quality was evident again on Saturday. There are far too many players misplacing passes and taking heavy touches for them to trouble the Champions League places.
 
I don't know why so many of you think this is a top four squad.

The gap in genuine quality was evident again on Saturday. There are far too many players misplacing passes and taking heavy touches for them to trouble the Champions League places.

A mini run and everyone gets carried away...

It'll be the same if we pick up over Christmas but we just don't have the team to be challenging up there. Players like Cazorla and Sanchez are in a different class to what we're working with.
 
Moyes put a reputation in every Evertonians mind- a pessimist approach. "Everton that." Martinez is trying to change that. Just notice how when Stones handed in the transfer request everybody had him sold. That's our attitude. Negative, woeful, and to be completely honest very embarrassing. So for this reason alone I say we back this Spaniard. He did something Moyes would've never had the balls to. He stood up against the media, against Chelsea, and some may say against even the board. This is the man to bring us back to our glory days. He wants to change our mindset, not just the club, but everybody involved in any possible way as well. God Bless you Roberto Martinez.
 
I don't think we have a top-4 squad but I do think quite a few of our first-11 are top-4 caliber. If the young players start reaching their potential, we don't have major injury problems, and we get a bit lucky, a top-4 finish is possible. The year we had in 2013-2014 would have gotten us into Champion's League in most seasons.
 

I don't think top 4 is that unrealistic given how the top sides are faltering currently. However I get your point. We have about the 11th highest wage bill and find ourselves in a similar position in terms of money spent.

In that context a top half finish (between 10th to 7th) is not an outstanding performance but by no means sackable. I think thats the distinction people to struggle with. For me it isn't an either/or. Achieve all your goals or sack the manager. There is a middle ground. You can do ok, not excel but also not not under achieve enough to ensure you deserve the sack. To me sacking someone is quite a drastic action and not one I'd have for being half way up the league.

I am a big believer in continuity. In the long run chopping and changing would not benefit Everton as it doesn't benefit most teams. It costs a lot of money (when we don't have a lot) and the infrastructure we have built up would be lost. There is not much I credit the board with but I give Kenwright credit for resisting the boom and bust cycle that seems to dominate a majority of football clubs.

I always backed Moyes for that reason too. I was never delighted with his football, nor was I even that keen on the idea that all we could hope to achieve was a top 6 finish. However I don't think at any point, over a pro-longed period (of over a year/season) we underachieved enough to justify the sack. Likewise we were never massively threatened with relegation. Anyone who thinks either Moyes or Martinez have had us in a proper dogfight can't remember the days of the 90's!

The other key point in all of this though, which I have probably learnt from the Moyes time is I think I would want a manager who would have an idea/plan of some sort to get us to win things. I don't think we should just settle for a manager who guarentees us the gravy train of the premier league season after season however tempting it is.

The thing I like about Martinez (more so than his immediate results) is he has a longer term vision that he is aiming to get us challenging to win things. You can see that with him adopting a particularly attacking style, the use of that style all the way through to the youth teams and his desire to give young players an opportunity. Also his steadfast defence of keeping Stones at seemingly any cost (when many of us may have took the pragmatist line and sold).

In isolation it would be very easy to pick on any of the above things and attack him. However if you look at them as part of a wider picture what you see is a manager who is not prepared to just accept Everton as an average to decent side who will sell their best young players as soon as a top team wants them. That is what swings it for me with Martinez.

I think along the way Moyes lost hope of ever building a top team. If I ever got that sense from Martinez I would change that view too. Ultimately continuity only works if you are working towards something better and using that stability to good affect.

When I (and you/others) say 8th is ok it doesn't mean we are celebrating it. However it is acknowledging the limitations of being a club with about a quarter of the revenue of the top teams. The question isn't just about there where and now, but also have they got a plan going forward. If we can be stable in the here and now and be seen to be progressing then that will do me.

It may click this season and if it does we could finish 4th. However in 18 months, if Deulofeu, Barkley, Stones, Garbutt, Lukaku Browning and Galloway keep developing we are going to be in a really good position. Do we rally want to jettison that project? Are we real convinced there's a manager good enough to get the current crop to challenge for the title?

I don't think there's been a start to a season in recent memory when people haven't said the top 4 isn't achievable because others are dropping points. It happens all the time but almost always the top teams sort themselves out and get where they need to be.

The problem is obviously keeping these younger players you've mentioned, who actually believes that Lukaku isn't here until his 'breakout' season and then he'll be off? We did admirably with Stones this summer but it's a huge ask to keep hold of these youngsters, especially when you're not delivering trophies and European football.
 
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We should change our nil satis nisi optimum to, we can't be the best because of this and because of that......

Truely the most defeatist fans in the prem
 
As always, the clincher for a top side making top four is not just how they play against the top sides, but winning against the bottom sides.
In the past we've been guilty of too many draws and being unable to break compact teams down. It's been a really tough run to start the season, and the points we've gotten isn't that bad considering. Could be better but could be worse.
Our next run of fixtures through to the January transfer window where we don't have to play any teams of not aside from Arsenal is key in that.
Win most of those and we'll have a good foundation to kick on.
 

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