Roberto Martinez discussion

[mkrudden]

The time element is important, yes. Martinez does give younger players more time than Moyes did to find their feet and that is a major distinction. But it's wrong to suggest that Moyes was a manager who gave youngsters a go in the way Martinez has and that it's just down to how long he leaves them in for. Moyes was here 11 years and never gained a reputation for being anything but over cautious with academy players. Let's put it this way: if Martinez is here as long as Moyes was he'll have introduced comfortably more young players to first team football than Moyes was willing to do in his time. There was a reluctance and misgiving in Moyes where that age group was concerned where there's eagerness to the point of prioritising their introduction with Martinez.

Chalk and cheese they were over this issue. There's no continuity (as you suggest) whatsoever.

Agreed.
The way he handled Barkley was a travesty in my opinion.

 

[Saint Domingo]

The time element is important, yes. Martinez does give younger players more time than Moyes did to find their feet and that is a major distinction. But it's wrong to suggest that Moyes was a manager who gave youngsters a go in the way Martinez has and that it's just down to how long he leaves them in for. Moyes was here 11 years and never gained a reputation for being anything but over cautious with academy players. Let's put it this way: if Martinez is here as long as Moyes was he'll have introduced comfortably more young players to first team football than Moyes was willing to do in his time. There was a reluctance and misgiving in Moyes where that age group was concerned where there's eagerness to the point of prioritising their introduction with Martinez.

Chalk and cheese they were over this issue. There's no continuity (as you suggest) whatsoever.

Not a fair comparison though. Martinez had arrived at a point where Finch farm is now in full flow and we are starting to see perhaps the first crop of youngsters coming through. Moyes had bellfield and a youth system that needed a complete overhaul. I don't know how people can say players didn't get a chance. The crucial difference was that most weren't good enough. Osman Rooney Rodwell all established themselves as first team players under Moyes. He also have multiple opportunities to Vaughan, Anichebe and Gosling. The likes of Baxter, Forshaw, Duffy all got run outs in the league, cups and Europe. The sad truth is none where really good enough no matter how much time Moyes gave them. In a way it was shrewd of him to move them on so they could play regularly. None have even returned to the top flight (Gosling just this season) and none have definitely gone on to better things than Everton. I disagree with people's views on his handling of Barkley and the assumption that he wouldn't have played Stones after buying him. Moyes showed through his inclusion in the first team squad of Rooney Rodwell and Barkley as teenagers that if you were good enough he'd play you. Stones would be no different. Compared to other clubs we've had two incredible managers for bringing youth through.

 

[TheFinnFan]

Anyone who suggests that moyes could be even mentioned in the same sentence with Bobby when talking about trusting young players are probably on crack.

 

[davek]

Not a fair comparison though. Martinez had arrived at a point where Finch farm is now in full flow and we are starting to see perhaps the first crop of youngsters coming through. Moyes had bellfield and a youth system that needed a complete overhaul. I don't know how people can say players didn't get a chance. The crucial difference was that most weren't good enough. Osman Rooney Rodwell all established themselves as first team players under Moyes. He also have multiple opportunities to Vaughan, Anichebe and Gosling. The likes of Baxter, Forshaw, Duffy all got run outs in the league, cups and Europe. The sad truth is none where really good enough no matter how much time Moyes gave them. In a way it was shrewd of him to move them on so they could play regularly. None have even returned to the top flight (Gosling just this season) and none have definitely gone on to better things than Everton. I disagree with people's views on his handling of Barkley and the assumption that he wouldn't have played Stones after buying him. Moyes showed through his inclusion in the first team squad of Rooney Rodwell and Barkley as teenagers that if you were good enough he'd play you. Stones would be no different. Compared to other clubs we've had two incredible managers for bringing youth through.

Everton had a good system in place well before the shift to FF.

The players you mention are over the course of a generation at Everton. It hardly goes beyond the players you mention there and it's not impressive, tbh. And the point also raised by Lanolin is a good one concerning perseverance with youngsters when they do get a sniff of first team football.

There really is a massively different outlook between Moyes and Martinez on this.

 

[sageyefc]

Not a fair comparison though. Martinez had arrived at a point where Finch farm is now in full flow and we are starting to see perhaps the first crop of youngsters coming through. Moyes had bellfield and a youth system that needed a complete overhaul. I don't know how people can say players didn't get a chance. The crucial difference was that most weren't good enough. Osman Rooney Rodwell all established themselves as first team players under Moyes. He also have multiple opportunities to Vaughan, Anichebe and Gosling. The likes of Baxter, Forshaw, Duffy all got run outs in the league, cups and Europe. The sad truth is none where really good enough no matter how much time Moyes gave them. In a way it was shrewd of him to move them on so they could play regularly. None have even returned to the top flight (Gosling just this season) and none have definitely gone on to better things than Everton. I disagree with people's views on his handling of Barkley and the assumption that he wouldn't have played Stones after buying him. Moyes showed through his inclusion in the first team squad of Rooney Rodwell and Barkley as teenagers that if you were good enough he'd play you. Stones would be no different. Compared to other clubs we've had two incredible managers for bringing youth through.

Sheedy himself said moyes rarely paid attention to the youth. Only the ones of undeniable talent got significant game time and even then he mishandled ross and to some extent rodwell, If he did give some a go it was usually out of position and for only the odd 10 minutes.

 

[Harryflashman]

As said above though it's not about playing a team full of youngsters in a dead European rubber or playing them for one game to cover injury/suspension. It's about trusting youngsters and putting your faith in them to support them through a difficult patch .

Stones making mistakes was supported through it by Martinez . Ross gave a penalty away at Blackburn and wasn't trusted for a while , unless my memory is going. Also another occasion at Blackburn didn't peter Clarke have a stinker and just disappear ?

The idea that some of these young players didn't go on to have stellar careers doesn't necessarily mean they weren't good enough . It might mean that but it also might mean they weren't handled properly through their development , that's not a specific Moyes dig by the way .

 

[MartSlinger]

Agreed.
The way he handled Barkley was a travesty in my opinion.

Will never forget Ross bossing the game against Arsenal at The Emirates in that 0-0 and being dropped against Sunderland for the returning Leon Osman.

 

[Saint Domingo]

As said above though it's not about playing a team full of youngsters in a dead European rubber or playing them for one game to cover injury/suspension. It's about trusting youngsters and putting your faith in them to support them through a difficult patch .

Stones making mistakes was supported through it by Martinez . Ross gave a penalty away at Blackburn and wasn't trusted for a while , unless my memory is going. Also another occasion at Blackburn didn't peter Clarke have a stinker and just disappear ?

The idea that some of these young players didn't go on to have stellar careers doesn't necessarily mean they weren't good enough . It might mean that but it also might mean they weren't handled properly through their development , that's not a specific Moyes dig by the way .

Stones was 19 and had played first team for Barnsley and was blatantly good enough regardless of mistakes to play first team for us. Ross was 17, straight back from a huge injury. The hype around him was enormous. He's 21 now and this is the first season id say he's playing consistently, yet people wanted him in in the first team at 17 for most games? Baffling.

Martinez's rep has been inflated somewhat by injuries. The only two players who have nailed down first team spots are Barkley and Stones. Stones only got in the team thanks to an injury to Jags and then Distin falling off a cliff. Start of 14/15 Stones was at RB whilst Jags and Distin started. It was only as Distin declined Martinez made him a full first choice player.

Galloway will be straight out of the team as soon as Baines is fit. Browning was straight out the team as soon as Coleman was half fit. (Both playing out of position by the way for all you who like to bash Moyes' treatment of Coleman).

Ultimately old heads still rule over giving academy players a chance. Ledson cannot get a game whilst Barry does, Cleverley was bought in unnecessarily rather than giving one of the young players a chance. McAleny barely gets a look in upfront.

In my mind they're the same. Both are good at making sure the top talent gets to the first team but both are reluctant to replace experience with academy players. Shock horror, maybe most aren't good enough.

Where Martinez has done well is buying top youth players. Deulofeu, Lukaku etc. But then Moyes bought Coleman and turned him into the league's top right back, and also bought Stones.

Moyes was also round at Barkleys house when he broke his leg reassuring him of his future so all these stories making him out as someone not interested in youth whatsoever seem baloney.

 

[By god I'm blue]

A lot said we will give him until November this season to judge him.....I actually said October.

The run of games coming up including should be his defining period IMO and make or break for him.

Decent start to the season, but nothing spectacular. We beat Southampton who have improved dramatically since and also Chelsea who have had a woeful start.

We now enter a period of matched where improved teams this season are on the horizon and he needs to show us he is on the ball.

 

[Blue Cheese]

We have only lost 2 games and we have played all but Arsenal out of the big boys. Don't understand what's up for debate regarding RM.

You can't win every game, you can't play sparkling football every game.

Anyone who can't see the difference between last season and this though; in terms of how we look and the vibe coming from the club, is deluding themselves.

Let's get behind the team and who knows we might achieve something for once.

 

[By god I'm blue]

We have only lost 2 games and we have played all but Arsenal out of the big boys. Don't understand what's up for debate regarding RM.

You can't win every game, you can't play sparkling football every game.

Anyone who can't see the difference between last season and this though; in terms of how we look and the vibe coming from the club, is deluding themselves.

Let's get behind the team and who knows we might achieve something for once.

Our last 2 games have been a 3-0 defeat and a lacklustre performance against the neighbours, which took us 30 minutes to get going and we managed a draw.

Sounds like you might be deluding yourself slightly.

We should have been beaten at Spurs but for Howard and we have drawn against Watford at home.

Yes it is an improvement on last season with regards to looking a bit more solid and not fannying as much in possesion, but that wouldn't be too hard would it? Like I said above, the next few games should be make or break for him.

 

[Blue Cheese]

Our last 2 games have been a 3-0 defeat and a lacklustre performance against the neighbours, which took us 30 minutes to get going and we managed a draw.

Sounds like you might be deluding yourself slightly.

We should have been beaten at Spurs but for Howard and we have drawn against Watford at home.

Yes it is an improvement on last season with regards to looking a bit more solid and not fannying as much in possesion, but that wouldn't be too hard would it? Like I said above, the next few games should be make or break for him.

I'm as frustrated as anyone at the defeats and how we seemingly take a half to get going. All I'm saying is, at this stage of the season and considering who we have played, It's too early too get the knives out.

We are doing much better than I expected after last season. Yes it's not perfect but we have had a lot of injuries but for me it seems to be moving in the right direction.

It's all well and good saying we should be top four but it's not as easy as people make it out to be. Like it or not their are 4 teams with better squads than ours and another 2 who we are in direct competition with. So getting top 6 is a hard task. We are not entitled.

 

[Blue Cheese]

I'd also like to add that, I really am intrigued about how Martinez is trying to get together a good young squad for the future, knowing we can't compete financially. It may take time.

 

[Brendan Janus]

Considering we are likely to get turned over at the Emirates Saturday evening, don't think we've won away at Arsenal since 1996, (might be wrong there), that would be W 3 D 4 L 3 P 13, pretty average start, & the average start proves once more we are miles away from the top four or five sides !!

 

[By god I'm blue]

Considering we are likely to get turned over at the Emirates Saturday evening, don't think we've won away at Arsenal since 1996, (might be wrong there), that would be W 3 D 4 L 3 P 13, pretty average start, & the average start proves once more we are miles away from the top four or five sides !!

Yep.....decidedly average and falling behind the likes of West Ham and Crystal Palace as well as the top 4 or 5 sides still. It's a hard l;eague this season that's for sure.

I am as excited about the crop of players we have as the next man. But they actually need to start producing results, we can't live on potential forever.