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Roberto Martinez discussion

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I'm as frustrated as anyone at the defeats and how we seemingly take a half to get going. All I'm saying is, at this stage of the season and considering who we have played, It's too early too get the knives out.

We are doing much better than I expected after last season. Yes it's not perfect but we have had a lot of injuries but for me it seems to be moving in the right direction.

It's all well and good saying we should be top four but it's not as easy as people make it out to be. Like it or not their are 4 teams with better squads than ours and another 2 who we are in direct competition with. So getting top 6 is a hard task. We are not entitled.

City - L 0-2
Man U - L 0-3
Liverpool - D 1-1
Spurs - D 0-0
Chelsea - W 3-1

1 win in 5 and that against a team in crisis, not that good really though is it mate? Sorry but I really felt the need to point that out.
 
We get fixated on this 4th place position. It's admirable in a way because it shows that fans refuse to let the club owners off the hook in terms of expectation. However, I do think obsession over PL position has maybe cost us in the cups in the past decade and more. Moyes may have reached a final with us but he was averse to domestic cup competition because he wanted all resources focussed on PL placing. Martinez has done nothing to buck the trend so far, but hopefully once we get Norwich out of the way at least one cup this season will be prioritised before it reaches the latter stages.

The CL spots are a chimera, imo. They'll never be attained now unless you have hundreds of millions spent on a squad which can withstand injury, slumps in form and suspensions. We are not at the races in that respect. Martinez's 72 points was a Herculean effort in modern times. And it still didn't get us within touching distance of the CL spots.

Our best route to relaunching Everton is a cup win. If it was me I'd be targeting the LC and FA Cup each season 100%, and I'd accept mid-table in the league without any problem whatsoever.

I dont get the fixation with getting a pat on the head as the 'best of the rest'. All it does in actuality is saddle you with the EL and a headache the following season.

I think finishing as high in the league as possible is important because it is indicative of getting things right generally. It is the best barometer (but not the only barometer) of measuring progress.

I can completely understand the fixation with champions league money. It would always be held up as providing the additional finance required to take us to "the next level" and compete for better players. I think the problems with that thinking now are two fold
1) It is now looking very dated, and to a pre-TV revenue increase
2) The top 4 is now an arms that can destabilise if it is fetishized above all else
3) In reality qualifying once isn't the dream ticket to success it was once considered.

If we take the first point, often people would say "if only we just had that extra 20/30 million we'd be able to do/buy x/y/z". The reality is with the increase in TV money that has already allowed that. It has allowed Everton to turn down 40 million for Stones. To Sign Lukaku for 25 million. To give big contracts to Barkley, McCarthy, Mirallas. We simply do not NEED the CL money as much as we might 10 years ago. The increase in TV revenues have in many ways trumped it.

This has led to point 2. The top 4 is now an arms race. You can see it's affect with English teams across Europe. They have had to become so bogged down in ensuring top 4 qualification actually achieving in Europe has gone out of the window. Arsenal are the best example for this. If you look though, you have the wealthiest club in the world, two clubs bankrolled by billionaires and Arsenal who are in the top 5 clubs in the world on turnover. To breach that cartel will be very hard. That's before you look at clubs like Liverpool and Spurs who are in the top 10 of Europe.

I look at Spurs and Liverpool and they have been the real losers in all of it. If we take Liverpool, aside form the obvious point that Rodgers struggled because he was a Brent Mk 2 his real problems came when he sacrificed his outlook in search of the short term goal of Champions league. the signings of Lambert/Balotelli. The change of system from attacking football to 3 (or 5) at the back. All short term plugs moving away from a particular way of playing, caused by the desperation to get two places higher in the league.

Spurs have operated like that for some time. However with the introduction of Pochetino they have moved away form that for the first time. He wasn't sacked for finishing outside of those places. They are avoiding signings star players to short cut them into the top 4 for getting a younger group of players who fit into a system. They look as well placed as they have done in a decade.

The reality is, the Champions league is not a dream ticket. Liverpool qualified last summer yet still struggled to get the big named players like United did (who failed to qualify). Spurs qualified for a season or two but it didn't lead to prolonged success. To maximise the CL revenue you have to be in their every season and have an infrastructure ready to capitalise on it (Arsenal being the best example, a huge stadium with loads of boxes, big sponsorship etc).

What is the end result of all of this? We should strive to finish in the top 4 but not at the expense of everything else. Our focus should be on doing the right things consistently which will eventually pay off. I watched the highlights back of the United game, and while it was a poor performance there was still a lot of positives for me. We are creating chances against a defence with 4 Internationals (2 English, 1 Italian 1 Argentinian). Lets not lose sight of improvements in search of a very difficult and not as beneficial as it once was goal.
 
City - L 0-2
Man U - L 0-3
Liverpool - D 1-1
Spurs - D 0-0
Chelsea - W 3-1

1 win in 5 and that against a team in crisis, not that good really though is it mate? Sorry but I really felt the need to point that out.

Still only lost 2 games out of 9 though. Perspective. Out of interest how many points do you think we should have taken from those fixtures for you to consider it a success?
 
Just to add a little to this, there's some stating that this is a top 4 quality side...

How can it be when the "core group" of players are basically 19-24 year olds and like you stated, need at least another 18months of development (along with the team being strengthened) to really see their potential over 5 years since Martinez would have taken over.

There is limited depth up front and were relying on playing Lukaku every single game and even ignoring tiredness cannot change the tactics with a different type of player there. Additionally, we have poor keepers.

How this is already a top 4 side is beyond me.

However, if they keep developing and top new players are added this could be far better than top 4....just needs another couple of years to see how far it could go and even then will have another decade out of the top players.

Yes it has always amazed me that even since the Moyes days people have at times rather over estimated our squad quality. We have a good squad but are still some way off having the consistent match winners the sides who occupy the top 4 have.
 
I don't think there's been a start to a season in recent memory when people haven't said the top 4 isn't achievable because others are dropping points. It happens all the time but almost always the top teams sort themselves out and get where they need to be.

The problem is obviously keeping these younger players you've mentioned, who actually believes that Lukaku isn't here until his 'breakout' season and then he'll be off? We did admirably with Stones this summer but it's a huge ask to keep hold of these youngsters, especially when you're not delivering trophies and European football.

Yes I think that's true. At present Chelsea are having a major wobble and I still don't think United are so stable. I do think the rest of the league is catching the top 4 teams though.

Well it may well be the case. I think Martinez has shown though for arguably the first time we will not just let top players leave when a club wants them. Ultimately I suspect players may go but I think it will only be for huge money and when we are ready to sell them. This is no different to any other team. If somebody put the sort of offer United did for Martial in for Lukaku. 36 million rising to 60 million I think we would strongly consider it.
 

I disagree, a top manager could have this team top 4 in my opinion. We say the same thing every season 'top 4 is impossible' and every season one of the big 4 limps home because a few other teams shot themselves in the foot. I believe a strong Everton gets top 4 last year, a poor United beat a woeful Liverpool.
Sadly for Everton to get into the top 4 we need to have the perfect season.

The bigger clubs can afford slip ups along the way, this is due to the depth of Quality they have.

At the moment we have potential to break into the top 4, this is more than we have had in previous years
 
I think we are 3 key signings Keeper/playmaker(left sided)/Striker away from having a very talented squad. We also need a couple of seasons for the team to "gel" with players coming through the ranks and being bought.

That being said....

We have "real money" on the pitch now, players like Stones,Barkley,Coleman,Lukaku etc at this moment in time are all £20mil players and would fit into one of the consistent top 4 sides...others coming through like Galloway and perhaps new signings like Mori can also potentially be placed in that bracket soon.

So effectively, at least in my opinion types like Karius/Butland --Yarmolenko -- Austin(?) Coming in for say £30mil total...and we would actually look like a champions league squad in say 18-24 months time.


Yes it has always amazed me that even since the Moyes days people have at times rather over estimated our squad quality. We have a good squad but are still some way off having the consistent match winners the sides who occupy the top 4 have.
 
Moyes put a reputation in every Evertonians mind- a pessimist approach. "Everton that." Martinez is trying to change that. Just notice how when Stones handed in the transfer request everybody had him sold. That's our attitude. Negative, woeful, and to be completely honest very embarrassing. So for this reason alone I say we back this Spaniard. He did something Moyes would've never had the balls to. He stood up against the media, against Chelsea, and some may say against even the board. This is the man to bring us back to our glory days. He wants to change our mindset, not just the club, but everybody involved in any possible way as well. God Bless you Roberto Martinez.
RM biggest problem is he has given us a positive spin and approach, he has got us believing we have the potential to go on and create something special - I for one applaud him for this approach.
Sadly there are people who still like us to be pluckily little Everton, the team that fights above its weight.

The question is will RM get us into the top 4 or win us silverware, who knows, but at least he is building towards it
 
£36mil rising to £60mil for Lukaku as long as they were individual targets (rather than winning the champions league for example) wouldnt be a terrible deal but i think Martinez wouldnt sell unless it was for a big lump sum, something insane like £50mil.

For that kind of money though i'd still struggle to think of many players who could be on par with Lukaku that we could sign.



Yes I think that's true. At present Chelsea are having a major wobble and I still don't think United are so stable. I do think the rest of the league is catching the top 4 teams though.

Well it may well be the case. I think Martinez has shown though for arguably the first time we will not just let top players leave when a club wants them. Ultimately I suspect players may go but I think it will only be for huge money and when we are ready to sell them. This is no different to any other team. If somebody put the sort of offer United did for Martial in for Lukaku. 36 million rising to 60 million I think we would strongly consider it.
 

RM biggest problem is he has given us a positive spin and approach, he has got us believing we have the potential to go on and create something special - I for one applaud him for this approach.
Sadly there are people who still like us to be pluckily little Everton, the team that fights above its weight.

The question is will RM get us into the top 4 or win us silverware, who knows, but at least he is building towards it
The biggest problem is yes, he is right, we could become sommet, we have the best squad for a long long time. He isn't getting the best out of it week in week out tho and sadly, this is prob his last chance cos he could either be out on his ear or, more likely, this squad will be broken up
 
Remember that young player that Moyes never played and ended up releasing, who went on to win the World Cup and establish himself as a fairly top centre back about 18 months later?
 
When we signed Mustafi a German colleague told me at the time that he was meant to be the best German defensive prospect for some time. He even showed me a few reports in German about how good he was touted to become...

When we let him go i received an email from the now ex-colleagye who asked why....he was adamant that Mustafi was still rated very highly in germany and would go on to be a top player....was even surprised Bayern didnt snap him up off us.

I suppose its possible that he didnt fit the premier league but could be a superstar on the continent...


Edit-- bizarre we never sent him on loan first to see how he could play overseas.

Remember that young player that Moyes never played and ended up releasing, who went on to win the World Cup and establish himself as a fairly top young centre back about 18 months later?
 
The biggest problem is yes, he is right, we could become sommet, we have the best squad for a long long time. He isn't getting the best out of it week in week out tho and sadly, this is prob his last chance cos he could either be out on his ear or, more likely, this squad will be broken up
A good point made there he is not getting the best out of the players we have.
He has got a good squad together but he cannot seem to pick the right team.
Naismith should never start especially out left.
We need to split the barry/mcarthey partnership up as well,i would like to see jimmy mac have more license to go forward.
 
The biggest problem is yes, he is right, we could become sommet, we have the best squad for a long long time. He isn't getting the best out of it week in week out tho and sadly, this is prob his last chance cos he could either be out on his ear or, more likely, this squad will be broken up
So he creates something then he is sacked as he doesn't get instant success

I believe to build something you need time, and for some reason RM is being given little or no time.
I believe this as I still feel people are not willing to take a leap of faith, simply people still want the tag of plucky Everton

Also it annoys me that for some reason people can find criticism in what RM has built, people talk about it being the best squad we have had. I hear we don't get the best out of it, what people never mention the squad is built around potential and potential needs time.

I do despair at times
 

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