Roberto Martinez discussion

[toffeeblue9]

I never really understand these arguments.

To me, a manager should be judged against whether they overachieve or underachieve vs expectation levels.

Martinez finished 5th in his first season, 11th in his 2nd season and is currently 9th after 9 games (and after Saturday will have played last season's top 8 all in the first 10 games).

Now, there are the facts - what level should we be holding him to and why?

Here's another fact - in the last published set of results, Everton had the 10th/11th biggest wage bill in the Premier League

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-wage-table-revealed-5560964

The top 6 sides there are the 6 sides you would expect, yet for some reason we expect that our manager should be challenging these teams. Why? We spent two thirds of the money Spurs do on wages, less than half of the money Liverpool do and a fraction of the others.

I was as disappointed as anyone last season, but is there not an argument to be made that we simply finished where we should be finishing based on our level of expenditure?

It makes Martinez's first season here even more impressive in context. It also adds weight to the argument that Moyes did a good job here too, even in the post-2009 era when most believed he was "stagnating".

Personally, I'd judge a manager on whether they meet the expectation levels. The difficulty here is that we have punched above our financial weight for so long that people now expect this as the norm and I'm not sure that's always completely fair.

 

[degsy]

Just because you said that we'll finish top 4 and win a trophy this season.

so long as I have some brown sauce I can eat all the humble pie you can vault

 

[davek]

Could be anything though, stops the Press harassing the Club for interviews about something when they are trying to prepare for the Game. A lot of news is done like that, it doesn't have to be anything big either, just stuff that will be announced later

As you say, possibly Kendall related.

 

[squonk]

It is now much more difficult to qualify for the CL than it was 10 years ago but when we did it was a massive achievement under the circumstances and should not be downplayed.

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

As you say, possibly Kendall related.

could also be him commenting on another Club's embargoed info (what do you think of the Jose sacking etc..) means they have his soundbite already and everyone isn't disrupting our preparations when it is released. As I say, could be anything, not necessarily an Everton announcement, just something they want Bobby's comment on.

 

[Lowste]

So, they're nailing their colours to the mast: they want Martinez out after a fixture run against the top teams in the PL has ben successfully negotiated and in the teeth of an injury crisis.

Now that is refreshingly honesty.

If honest mate, I would rather people be honest over their feelings towards RM.
The people who pull him to pieces but dont admit to wanting him out or dislike him are the annoying ones

 

[davek]

could also be him commenting on another Club's embargoed info (what do you think of the Jose sacking etc..) means they have his soundbite already and everyone isn't disrupting our preparations when it is released. As I say, could be anything, not necessarily an Everton announcement, just something they want Bobby's comment on.

I think it's about a takeover...

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

I think it's about a takeover...

Or our agreement to buy Yarmolenko when the window reopens ;-)

 

[davek]

If honest mate, I would rather people be honest over their feelings towards RM.
The people who pull him to pieces but dont admit to wanting him out or dislike him are the annoying ones

Defo yeah. That's why it was refreshing.

Many of them have felt that way before Kenwright employed him. That's why I cant take their protestations seriously. The likes of daz4matty and nsno-chris and others.

 

[Saint Domingo]

If honest mate, I would rather people be honest over their feelings towards RM.
The people who pull him to pieces but dont admit to wanting him out or dislike him are the annoying ones

Why can't there be a shade of grey? Why does there have to be two camps and indeed people criticised for being in the middle? I don't like what I've currently seen from Martinez, but I'm also not really a fan of firing managers without giving him time. Do I want him out now? No, absolutely ludicrous kopite behaviour to do that at the start of a season. If we show no sign of improvement this season and the next would I consider it appropriate at the end of 2016/17? Yes. People can criticise what he's done so far but still want him to turn it around. Most people just want what's best for Everton. Some see that as a change in manager. What no one wants is for us to lose games just to get a manager out (which is what certain posters like to imply).

 

[Abraders]

I never really understand these arguments.

To me, a manager should be judged against whether they overachieve or underachieve vs expectation levels.

Martinez finished 5th in his first season, 11th in his 2nd season and is currently 9th after 9 games (and after Saturday will have played last season's top 8 all in the first 10 games).

Now, there are the facts - what level should we be holding him to and why?

Here's another fact - in the last published set of results, Everton had the 10th/11th biggest wage bill in the Premier League

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-wage-table-revealed-5560964

The top 6 sides there are the 6 sides you would expect, yet for some reason we expect that our manager should be challenging these teams. Why? We spent two thirds of the money Spurs do on wages, less than half of the money Liverpool do and a fraction of the others.

I was as disappointed as anyone last season, but is there not an argument to be made that we simply finished where we should be finishing based on our level of expenditure?

It makes Martinez's first season here even more impressive in context. It also adds weight to the argument that Moyes did a good job here too, even in the post-2009 era when most believed he was "stagnating".

Personally, I'd judge a manager on whether they meet the expectation levels. The difficulty here is that we have punched above our financial weight for so long that people now expect this as the norm and I'm not sure that's always completely fair.

Really good post imo, puts some things into perspective

 

[Stanley Parker]

Did anyone watch Sevilla last night? Now there is a model for us - and all aspiring clubs - to follow. From the Guardian;

For a while Sevilla’s neatness felt like a lesson in team-play and well-seasoned method. But then, let’s face it, pretty much any team in the world looks like an underachiever next to Sevilla, who are a genuinely remarkable top-level club, not just overachievers in their own league but Europe’s own kings of the coefficient, a team who played 15 Europa League ties last year just to get here, and have now won Europe’s secondary vase four times in the last 10 years.

In the last decade under the mercurial director of football, Monchi, Sevilla have traded at a profit on player sales while still continuing to win trophies. Currently their record signing is Steven Nzonzi, who cost £7m from Stoke City, and who appeared from the bench midway through the second half. City’s starting XI came in at around £250m. Sevilla’s cost £25m, or less than one Wilfried Bony.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

If honest mate, I would rather people be honest over their feelings towards RM.
The people who pull him to pieces but dont admit to wanting him out or dislike him are the annoying ones

I realise we're not all Saints on here but who on earth could you be referring to..

 

[Lanolin]

I never really understand these arguments.

To me, a manager should be judged against whether they overachieve or underachieve vs expectation levels.

Martinez finished 5th in his first season, 11th in his 2nd season and is currently 9th after 9 games (and after Saturday will have played last season's top 8 all in the first 10 games).

Now, there are the facts - what level should we be holding him to and why?

Here's another fact - in the last published set of results, Everton had the 10th/11th biggest wage bill in the Premier League

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-wage-table-revealed-5560964

The top 6 sides there are the 6 sides you would expect, yet for some reason we expect that our manager should be challenging these teams. Why? We spent two thirds of the money Spurs do on wages, less than half of the money Liverpool do and a fraction of the others.

I was as disappointed as anyone last season, but is there not an argument to be made that we simply finished where we should be finishing based on our level of expenditure?

It makes Martinez's first season here even more impressive in context. It also adds weight to the argument that Moyes did a good job here too, even in the post-2009 era when most believed he was "stagnating".

Personally, I'd judge a manager on whether they meet the expectation levels. The difficulty here is that we have punched above our financial weight for so long that people now expect this as the norm and I'm not sure that's always completely fair.

I agree with the principle of what you're saying, but i think we have to believe there is a possibility of us competing at the top table - otherwise what's the point?

Because of the restrictions in place every Everton manager is aware that they will be expected to punch above their weight. It's not something which is sprung on them after taking the job, it will be very clear to them when they apply. Regularly finishing 10th is not acceptable for this club, and nor should it be. The same idea applies in all aspects of life too, if I said to my CEO that I was doing alright considering the limitations i was working under he would not take it too kindly i can assure you.

 

[degsy]

I never really understand these arguments.

To me, a manager should be judged against whether they overachieve or underachieve vs expectation levels.

Martinez finished 5th in his first season, 11th in his 2nd season and is currently 9th after 9 games (and after Saturday will have played last season's top 8 all in the first 10 games).

Now, there are the facts - what level should we be holding him to and why?

Here's another fact - in the last published set of results, Everton had the 10th/11th biggest wage bill in the Premier League

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-wage-table-revealed-5560964

The top 6 sides there are the 6 sides you would expect, yet for some reason we expect that our manager should be challenging these teams. Why? We spent two thirds of the money Spurs do on wages, less than half of the money Liverpool do and a fraction of the others.

I was as disappointed as anyone last season, but is there not an argument to be made that we simply finished where we should be finishing based on our level of expenditure?

It makes Martinez's first season here even more impressive in context. It also adds weight to the argument that Moyes did a good job here too, even in the post-2009 era when most believed he was "stagnating".

Personally, I'd judge a manager on whether they meet the expectation levels. The difficulty here is that we have punched above our financial weight for so long that people now expect this as the norm and I'm not sure that's always completely fair.

yeah but who sets these expectations and just what are they

and again with the short version of my main argument; Moyes and Martinez are just different flavours of bang average

and that's exactly what we get...week...after week...after week...weak.