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Roberto Martinez discussion

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Im just not sure why people persist in beating that centre midfield pair.
I make no apologies for liking and appreciating Barry, but I and others are not fools - we understand his age and mobility mean that he needs rotating, he needs phasing out over the next 18 months.
Do we have a replacement "in-house"? No. Clearly not. The Besic lovers clammer for his inclusion, but he has shown no acumen in creativity which Barry has a degree of. The logical choice is Gibson, granted. The lad is creative, more so than Barry, yet he can't stay fit. It's quite clear he fails to look after himself off the pitch and it affects his playing time on it.
I like osman but shudder at the thought of him in central midfield.
The only other option then is to go out and buy a holding midfielder who is as comfortable at receiving the ball from Howard in our half as he is from Lukaku in the final third. These guys aren't cheap! So then it's about about where in the list of priorities does this signing go?
Since Martinez came in, look at what he's done transfer wise:
By integrating Stones and buying Funes Mori he has added 10 years potentially to the CBs "life-span". Approx 10mill.
Brought in McCarthy and Barry. A ball winner and a ball-player. Approx 15mill as Barry would have received a hefty sign on fee.
He's brought pace and width back to the team after God knows how long. McGeady, Lennon, Deulofeu. Approx 10million.
He's brought in a top, top forward. We now go into games at least expecting a goal because of Lukaku. 28million.

Now I get the "net spend" argument. But that isn't a stick to beat Martinez with. It's for the board.
I do think that even if we had millions upon millions to spend, would Martinez be throwing cash at every position? I doubt it. A huge influx of players into a club is proven to have a negative effect. See QPR, Spurs.

So to go back to the beginning of this post, Martinez isn't an idiot. The only reason he relies on Barry at his age is because a) he's the best at that job we have at the club b) he has had other priorities than spending a bucket of cash on a position which Barry does a more than decent job at.
 
mkrudden said:
Im just not sure why people persist in beating that centre midfield pair.
I make no apologies for liking and appreciating Barry, but I and others are not fools - we understand his age and mobility mean that he needs rotating, he needs phasing out over the next 18 months.
Do we have a replacement "in-house"? No. Clearly not. The Besic lovers clammer for his inclusion, but he has shown no acumen in creativity which Barry has a degree of. The logical choice is Gibson, granted. The lad is creative, more so than Barry, yet he can't stay fit. It's quite clear he fails to look after himself off the pitch and it affects his playing time on it.
I like osman but shudder at the thought of him in central midfield.
The only other option then is to go out and buy a holding midfielder who is as comfortable at receiving the ball from Howard in our half as he is from Lukaku in the final third. These guys aren't cheap! So then it's about about where in the list of priorities does this signing go?
Since Martinez came in, look at what he's done transfer wise:
By integrating Stones and buying Funes Mori he has added 10 years potentially to the CBs "life-span". Approx 10mill.
Brought in McCarthy and Barry. A ball winner and a ball-player. Approx 15mill as Barry would have received a hefty sign on fee.
He's brought pace and width back to the team after God knows how long. McGeady, Lennon, Deulofeu. Approx 10million.
He's brought in a top, top forward. We now go into games at least expecting a goal because of Lukaku. 28million.

Now I get the "net spend" argument. But that isn't a stick to beat Martinez with. It's for the board.
I do think that even if we had millions upon millions to spend, would Martinez be throwing cash at every position? I doubt it. A huge influx of players into a club is proven to have a negative effect. See QPR, Spurs.

So to go back to the beginning of this post, Martinez isn't an idiot. The only reason he relies on Barry at his age is because a) he's the best at that job we have at the club b) he has had other priorities than spending a bucket of cash on a position which Barry does a more than decent job at.
Click to expand...

Replacement for Barry? Look no further than our very own Ross Barkley. Evidence for this? Sterling performances in that position in the 13/14 home Derby, QPR home game last season, second half of Watford this season and some recent England games. Quicker and more creative than Barry, stronger and better at retaining the ball (Barry gives it away a lot). He is also able to run with it varying our attacks from just passing. McCarthy and Barkley would be a well balanced physical quick pairing who have played well together in the past.
 
mkrudden said:
Im just not sure why people persist in beating that centre midfield pair.
I make no apologies for liking and appreciating Barry, but I and others are not fools - we understand his age and mobility mean that he needs rotating, he needs phasing out over the next 18 months.
Do we have a replacement "in-house"? No. Clearly not. The Besic lovers clammer for his inclusion, but he has shown no acumen in creativity which Barry has a degree of. The logical choice is Gibson, granted. The lad is creative, more so than Barry, yet he can't stay fit. It's quite clear he fails to look after himself off the pitch and it affects his playing time on it.
I like osman but shudder at the thought of him in central midfield.
The only other option then is to go out and buy a holding midfielder who is as comfortable at receiving the ball from Howard in our half as he is from Lukaku in the final third. These guys aren't cheap! So then it's about about where in the list of priorities does this signing go?
Since Martinez came in, look at what he's done transfer wise:
By integrating Stones and buying Funes Mori he has added 10 years potentially to the CBs "life-span". Approx 10mill.
Brought in McCarthy and Barry. A ball winner and a ball-player. Approx 15mill as Barry would have received a hefty sign on fee.
He's brought pace and width back to the team after God knows how long. McGeady, Lennon, Deulofeu. Approx 10million.
He's brought in a top, top forward. We now go into games at least expecting a goal because of Lukaku. 28million.

Now I get the "net spend" argument. But that isn't a stick to beat Martinez with. It's for the board.
I do think that even if we had millions upon millions to spend, would Martinez be throwing cash at every position? I doubt it. A huge influx of players into a club is proven to have a negative effect. See QPR, Spurs.

So to go back to the beginning of this post, Martinez isn't an idiot. The only reason he relies on Barry at his age is because a) he's the best at that job we have at the club b) he has had other priorities than spending a bucket of cash on a position which Barry does a more than decent job at.
Click to expand...

It's all a matter of opinion i suppose.

You feel that a new central midfielder would be a luxury, I feel that it is absolutely vital in order to play in the style and system that Martinez wants. Possibly more so than any other position on the pitch. The system is totally reliant on us dictating the tempo and direction of the game. When we can't do that, we start to look very laboured. As we play a lot of our football in front of massed ranks of defenders, we become incredibly easy to stop when our central midfielders are unable to offer any sort of attacking threat. This leads to an over reliance on individual brilliance to get us points.

Also saying that he's brought pace and width to the team is a bit of a stretch. To the squad certainly, but he seems quite determined not to put it in to the team.
 
mkrudden said:
Im just not sure why people persist in beating that centre midfield pair.
I make no apologies for liking and appreciating Barry, but I and others are not fools - we understand his age and mobility mean that he needs rotating, he needs phasing out over the next 18 months.
Do we have a replacement "in-house"? No. Clearly not. The Besic lovers clammer for his inclusion, but he has shown no acumen in creativity which Barry has a degree of. The logical choice is Gibson, granted. The lad is creative, more so than Barry, yet he can't stay fit. It's quite clear he fails to look after himself off the pitch and it affects his playing time on it.
I like osman but shudder at the thought of him in central midfield.
The only other option then is to go out and buy a holding midfielder who is as comfortable at receiving the ball from Howard in our half as he is from Lukaku in the final third. These guys aren't cheap! So then it's about about where in the list of priorities does this signing go?
Since Martinez came in, look at what he's done transfer wise:
By integrating Stones and buying Funes Mori he has added 10 years potentially to the CBs "life-span". Approx 10mill.
Brought in McCarthy and Barry. A ball winner and a ball-player. Approx 15mill as Barry would have received a hefty sign on fee.
He's brought pace and width back to the team after God knows how long. McGeady, Lennon, Deulofeu. Approx 10million.
He's brought in a top, top forward. We now go into games at least expecting a goal because of Lukaku. 28million.

Now I get the "net spend" argument. But that isn't a stick to beat Martinez with. It's for the board.
I do think that even if we had millions upon millions to spend, would Martinez be throwing cash at every position? I doubt it. A huge influx of players into a club is proven to have a negative effect. See QPR, Spurs.

So to go back to the beginning of this post, Martinez isn't an idiot. The only reason he relies on Barry at his age is because a) he's the best at that job we have at the club b) he has had other priorities than spending a bucket of cash on a position which Barry does a more than decent job at.
Click to expand...

Did you know Gareth Barry is 5th in the players who have covered the most ground stats? Not bad for a 35year old has been like.

That stat was shown on Sky Sports yesterday.
 

marsh said:
If he starts del n kev like alot would like and we get beat it'll be he should of gone with lennon etc there better defensively.. And vice versa if he starts Naismith and Lennon and we lose.. Oh he should of started more attacking players.. He can't win really haha
Click to expand...

how about he starts one of Del/Mirallas and one of Naismith/Lennon to give it more balance ? starting Naismith was wrong, sorry like.
 
Lanolin said:
It's all a matter of opinion i suppose.

You feel that a new central midfielder would be a luxury, I feel that it is absolutely vital in order to play in the style and system that Martinez wants. Possibly more so than any other position on the pitch. The system is totally reliant on us dictating the tempo and direction of the game. When we can't do that, we start to look very laboured. As we play a lot of our football in front of massed ranks of defenders, we become incredibly easy to stop when our central midfielders are unable to offer any sort of attacking threat. This leads to an over reliance on individual brilliance to get us points.

Also saying that he's brought pace and width to the team is a bit of a stretch. To the squad certainly, but he seems quite determined not to put it in to the team.
Click to expand...

I just don't buy into this school of thought mate. Apologies if you or anyone else have seen me state this before but...

Our 2 holding midfielders are there to allow everyone else in the team (barring one CB and the keeper) to play in the opponents half. Coleman, Baines, Stones, the 'advanced midfield 3', the striker (obviously) are all told to express themselves creatively in the final third. Barry is creative, McCarthy not so - agreed. I think what your really stating (if you don't mind me saying) is the midfield 2 don't offer enough 'goal threat' as you believe they should, and it is this that I think is wrong.

Barry's job is to be creative, and he does that with a wide range of passing. His job is to find advanced players in space who will create the goal threat, whilst being still in a condition to offer defensive protection. His distribution is risky at times and doesn't come off. Agreed. But the onus is on the full backs, the strikers, the no.10/playmaker, the wingers to create a 'goal threat' and they should be able to do that with more freedom that at any other club in the league because we play the 2 holding midfielders.

Going back to my original point, there is no doubt that there are players out there that would be an upgrade on Barry - players who can probably find the forward players quicker, perhaps by executing more complicated passes, but fundamentally whoever Martinez sees as the long-term option there will be a holding midfielder and I think he's absolutely correct in that. Imagine if we played a Barkley player in there - what Martinez would be saying is - "Attack at will, kamikazee style, and if the ball is turned over then Jagielka and McCarthy - please will you try and stop the counter?".
 
[QUOTE="mkrudden, post: 3932067, member: 13052"


Barry's job is to be creative, and he does that with a wide range of passing. His job is to find advanced players in space who will create the goal threat, whilst being still in a condition to offer defensive protection. His distribution is risky at times and doesn't come off. Agreed. But the onus is on the full backs, the strikers, the no.10/playmaker, the wingers to create a 'goal threat' and they should be able to do that with more freedom that at any other club in the league because we play the 2 holding midfielders.]

The job you describe is the one that needs doing in the team but one that Barry does not do. He does not find advanced players in space quickly which is why we have such a problem breaking teams down. He does not offer much defensive protection as proven by Warford City and United playing through us at Goodison with ease. I agree with your second bit but if the onus really is on the other players why do we play 2 CBs at full back, defensive wingers, and a CM at number 10?

For me Gibson showed in 30 mins v West Brom what Barry should be doing. He was getting the ball in midfield and sweeping first time long passes straight to the feet of a running Deulofeu, who was then able to pick out Lukaku before the defence could set itself. 3 goals against a Pulus defence away from home. That is what Barry should be doing. Playing a succession of flat safe balls to the left back or McCarthy is not enough. When you wait and the opposition defence is set, any forward pass you do is risky as it becomes an eye of the needle one. This is where you see Barry after 5 mins of passing trying to thread one into Naismith who then has to try some ridiculous Barcelona style interplay with Lukaku just to get some space. It's too late.

I don't need any stats or figures to show it. He could have the best passing percentage in the world for me it would make no difference. He doesn't have the speed and penetration in his passing to effectively play the deep lying playmaker position for us. Gibson does, but in general if we want to play this way we need an upgrade. Other options include playing differently with Barkley or Cleverley running the ball more in that role.
 

mkrudden said:
I just don't buy into this school of thought mate. Apologies if you or anyone else have seen me state this before but...

Our 2 holding midfielders are there to allow everyone else in the team (barring one CB and the keeper) to play in the opponents half. Coleman, Baines, Stones, the 'advanced midfield 3', the striker (obviously) are all told to express themselves creatively in the final third. Barry is creative, McCarthy not so - agreed. I think what your really stating (if you don't mind me saying) is the midfield 2 don't offer enough 'goal threat' as you believe they should, and it is this that I think is wrong.

Barry's job is to be creative, and he does that with a wide range of passing. His job is to find advanced players in space who will create the goal threat, whilst being still in a condition to offer defensive protection. His distribution is risky at times and doesn't come off. Agreed. But the onus is on the full backs, the strikers, the no.10/playmaker, the wingers to create a 'goal threat' and they should be able to do that with more freedom that at any other club in the league because we play the 2 holding midfielders.

Going back to my original point, there is no doubt that there are players out there that would be an upgrade on Barry - players who can probably find the forward players quicker, perhaps by executing more complicated passes, but fundamentally whoever Martinez sees as the long-term option there will be a holding midfielder and I think he's absolutely correct in that. Imagine if we played a Barkley player in there - what Martinez would be saying is - "Attack at will, kamikazee style, and if the ball is turned over then Jagielka and McCarthy - please will you try and stop the counter?".
Click to expand...

I think you're missing the point. I get how it's supposed to work, i'm saying that it doesn't work.

Teams know that all our threat comes from wide areas, they set up stifle it and so leave us with no way of breaking them down. We then end up passing the pall around slowly. Barry is not 'creative'. He is a very good footballer, with an excellent range of passing, but he cannot thread balls through tight areas, nor can he drive forward with the ball, committing players and creating space.

I think the fact we have failed to score in 4 of our 9 games so far shows that there is a problem. It is also worth noting that we needed another goal in the derby but never really looked like getting it, and our goals against West Brom all came when we had changed away from the set up you are talking about. Watch some of the games again, it's not that Barry and McCarthy are 'defensive' midfielders in these situations, sitting deep as a shield for everybody else. They get forward just as much as any pair of central midfield players, they just don't do anything when they get there.
 
Lanolin said:
I think you're missing the point. I get how it's supposed to work, i'm saying that it doesn't work.

Teams know that all our threat comes from wide areas, they set up stifle it and so leave us with no way of breaking them down. We then end up passing the pall around slowly. Barry is not 'creative'. He is a very good footballer, with an excellent range of passing, but he cannot thread balls through tight areas, nor can he drive forward with the ball, committing players and creating space.

I think the fact we have failed to score in 4 of our 9 games so far shows that there is a problem. It is also worth noting that we needed another goal in the derby but never really looked like getting it, and our goals against West Brom all came when we had changed away from the set up you are talking about. Watch some of the games again, it's not that Barry and McCarthy are 'defensive' midfielders in these situations, sitting deep as a shield for everybody else. They get forward just as much as any pair of central midfield players, they just don't do anything when they get there.
Click to expand...

Hallelujah. Don't say this too many times though, apparently you'll have an agenda. Our record without Barry in the team or moved to left back is excellent. Our performances this season when one of Barry and McCarthy are moved out of midfield have been excellent. Our performances with both in midfield over the last season and the start of this one have been inconsistent and at worse dour and unimaginative. I'm not saying each player doesn't have their merit, they do, so does the partnership, but not for every single game home and away.
 

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