Roberto Martinez discussion

[davek]

But then again you would say that having nailed your colours firmly to his mast. I wouldn't expect any less from you. You will do anything to draw people away that in the last 3 home games we have drawn against Liverpool, Norwich and been trounced by Man U.

However, people concerned about the performance...these things happen in cup games and the Norwich players drafted up for this match will have been trying to cement their place in their starting line up as much as ours. It's not chamionship manager and we are not going to steam roll every side we play.

I am actually starting to think our players are not as good as we think they are, also that the premier league is now full of clubs with strong squads.

Sunderland at the weekend is a massive game now for Martinez. If we fail to win that one I think it will set our stall for the rest of the season and we can expect a mid table finish at best and hope for a flukey win in one of the cups.

I dont have to draw anyone away from anything. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Here we stand in the last days of October: played 13; won 6; drew 4; lost 3. We have the toughest opening 10 fixtures handed to any PL team behind us, stand at midtable and within 3 points of a European place, and we're into the QFs of the LC.

The only thing I would agree with you on is the overestimation of this squad of ours. There was a giant lie when Moyes left that he'd left us in a good state and the next manager coming in would benefit from his good house keeping. That was a huge fallacy. He left an ageing squad that needed gutting and replacing. Martinez plaited sawdust in that first season largely with the form of the players he brought in that summer (Barry, Lukaku, Deulofeu and McCarthy). Last season, embroiled in more games than we could handle and not having started the restructuring required because of it, we buckled and the Moyes era squad fell to pieces finally. This season we are seeing gutsier performances mixed with a sprinkling of very good displays and the rebuilding of the squad slowly but surely (although with Barry and Howard acting to keep the average age of a younger squad up...and that will be sorted sooner rather than later).

You and a few others seem determined to avoid the positives though. Why? I dont know. There is plenty this season to be content about. It's not perfect by a long chalk, but we have got off to a reasonable/good start. Why not just acknowledge that?

 

[orly]

Its basically pre-season for some of the players, match sharpness and fitness is an often overlooked thing.

It's all pre-season with Bottom Half Bobby - everyone is in an incredible moment, so why seek to improve?

 

[Deleted member 24970]

The best part Is there are people calling for the managers head for over 12 months due to the same old tactics, formation and favourites. Another poor display at home to Norwich and people are saying its just knee jerking, no its not, it is same old same old for over 12 months.

Personally the run of games we had so far have been tough in the main and we are still in the cup and hunt for Europe. I would personally give it another 10 games but im not sure anything will change soon.

 

[catcherintherye]

I dont have to draw anyone away from anything. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Here we stand in the last days of October: played 13; won 6; drew 4; lost 3. We have the toughest opening 10 fixtures handed to any PL team behind us, stand at midtable and within 3 points of a European place, and we're into the QFs of the LC.

You and a few others seem determined to avoid the positives though. Why? I dont know. There is plenty this season to be content about. It's not perfect by a long chalk, but we have got off to a reasonable/good start. Why not just acknowledge that?

Theoretically you are correct. We have had a horrific start to the season, so the logic that we can pick up more points against poorer teams is a logical one. However I am slightly alarmed at this for these four reasons;

1) We tend to perform better against top teams
2) The league is more open this season (the poor teams are better while the top teams are not as strong)
3) While our form this season has been ok, you don't need to be a top team to expose our weaknesses.
4) Our style is better suited to better teams who come onto us and allow us to counter.

Essentially people seem to think Sunderland at home is going to be a cake walk. I am really not so sure and I think it has draw written all over it. At present you don't have to try very hard to score goals past us. You need 2 offensive strategies and 1 defensive strategy. Offensively you get the ball wide and put it into the box. This alongside pressing us in our own third.
Defensively you just need to make sure your back 4 sits quite deep and doesn't allow space for Lukaku to run into.

The problem is, to execute those tactics doesn't require an enormous amount of skill. Sunderland are probably as adept at them as Arsenal. Both the goals they score on Saturday, Sunderland can score. Larsen or Johnson can put a cross in and Fletcher can head it in.

I think this run of fixtures is going to be very important for Martinez. How are we going to break these sides down. I would like to see Deulofeu and Mirallas play in wide areas and I have to say I think we now need to jettison Naismith as a starter. Increasingly we may need to look to move Barkley deeper to have an influence on the game. Maybe a subtle shift to a 4-3-3 would work with McCarthy having more onus to get forward?

We also have a tendency to lose the first goal. We haven't scored the first goal in any of our last 6 games. It is just piling the pressure on. It allows sides to sit deep against us and at present we do struggle to break them down.

Even if we get 13 points from the next 9 games (which would be disappointing) I still wouldn't sack Martinez. I see little point in changing managers, continuity works. However I do think he needs to start to think about how to break sides down who are going to park the bus. I worry we will revert to type, see the likes of Naismith playing (who has his uses against better teams) but in all fairness we really don't need to worry about Billy Jones on Saturday.

It will be an interesting 9 games for Martinez.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

I understand there are a lot of people who don't think Martinez has what it takes, many of which said the same before his took charge of his first game. To say people want Martinez to fail and as a result Everton to fail, is one of the biggest jokes I have ever heard in this forum, believe me I have contributed to some of them.

Really really disappointed @Groucho I expected a lot more from you to be honest

 

[dandydan]

During the worst of last season I said I'll give him till Christmas before I make my mind up. Thus far we have lost 3 games all against top 4 teams Watford and the Derby were 2 points dropped but I'm not a knee jerker, these things happen deal with it!
So far so good, how we perform against supposedly easier teams will see me get off the fence one way or the other.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I'd take any piece of silverware, don't care how we win it, so last night was good just because we got through.

For those writing off the performance as unimportant, can you not see the correlation between improved performances and winning more games? Quite frankly we let Norwich's second string dominate us for long periods at Goodison. We also didn't win it in the 90. Do this in the league and it's a lot of draws. Do it in the cup against decent opposition over 2 legs and we won't go through. If we follow the pattern of the previous three rounds of conceding first we'll be out.

Happy with the result but the season will not be a good one unless performances improve.

 

[davek]

Theoretically you are correct. We have had a horrific start to the season, so the logic that we can pick up more points against poorer teams is a logical one. However I am slightly alarmed at this for these four reasons;

1) We tend to perform better against top teams
2) The league is more open this season (the poor teams are better while the top teams are not as strong)
3) While our form this season has been ok, you don't need to be a top team to expose our weaknesses.
4) Our style is better suited to better teams who come onto us and allow us to counter.

Essentially people seem to think Sunderland at home is going to be a cake walk. I am really not so sure and I think it has draw written all over it. At present you don't have to try very hard to score goals past us. You need 2 offensive strategies and 1 defensive strategy. Offensively you get the ball wide and put it into the box. This alongside pressing us in our own third.
Defensively you just need to make sure your back 4 sits quite deep and doesn't allow space for Lukaku to run into.

The problem is, to execute those tactics doesn't require an enormous amount of skill. Sunderland are probably as adept at them as Arsenal. Both the goals they score on Saturday, Sunderland can score. Larsen or Johnson can put a cross in and Fletcher can head it in.

I think this run of fixtures is going to be very important for Martinez. How are we going to break these sides down. I would like to see Deulofeu and Mirallas play in wide areas and I have to say I think we now need to jettison Naismith as a starter. Increasingly we may need to look to move Barkley deeper to have an influence on the game. Maybe a subtle shift to a 4-3-3 would work with McCarthy having more onus to get forward?

We also have a tendency to lose the first goal. We haven't scored the first goal in any of our last 6 games. It is just piling the pressure on. It allows sides to sit deep against us and at present we do struggle to break them down.

Even if we get 13 points from the next 9 games (which would be disappointing) I still wouldn't sack Martinez. I see little point in changing managers, continuity works. However I do think he needs to start to think about how to break sides down who are going to park the bus. I worry we will revert to type, see the likes of Naismith playing (who has his uses against better teams) but in all fairness we really don't need to worry about Billy Jones on Saturday.

It will be an interesting 9 games for Martinez.

D'you know, by and large, I've not seen too much parking of the bus in this league this season. Now whether that's down to a general belief that the PL is so open that all teams are beatable and worth having a go at or it's just not happened so far yet I dont know. Apart from Pulis a few weeks back at WBA who started to revert back to the parked bus, I do think the approach this season by 'the minnows' is different, more open. So I wouldn't fret too much yet about teams coming to Goodison and shutting up shop.

Our defence is still ropey from set pieces or balls lumped in (Stones was shockingly statuesque for Norwich's goal last night). I'm hoping Funes Mori can add something there and Jagielka's absence could prove a boon for us. It's important we dont allow this chasing the game to become a defining feature of the season.

 

[Connor]

Tell me when you have seen him having a go at a ref like that, and for so long.

He's gone at refs and fourth officials plenty of times. He was renown for it at Wigan.

I think you're reading in to it too much, he's not under any pressure at all.

 

[degsy]

I know martinez has been a proper melt with the howard-robles situation.
But those of you who want him gone, who would you like us to replace him with

The trite answer is; this is about Stay or Go not whose next.

Also;
I don't expect all the jobsworths Martinez brought with him to say jack, but Dunc?? + all the other proper Blues??
There seems to be a power vacuum at the Club
and Martinez is/has/seems to have filled it

power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

As to who would take over? I'll throw in some one from left field

Unsworth.

 

[orly]

The trite answer is; this is about Stay or Go not whose next.

Also;
I don't expect all the jobsworths Martinez brought with him to say jack, but Dunc?? + all the other proper Blues??
There seems to be a power vacuum at the Club
and Martinez is/has/seems to have filled it

power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

As to who would take over? I'll throw in some one from left field

Unsworth.

Oh dear god no, please!

 

[By god I'm blue]

I dont have to draw anyone away from anything. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Here we stand in the last days of October: played 13; won 6; drew 4; lost 3. We have the toughest opening 10 fixtures handed to any PL team behind us, stand at midtable and within 3 points of a European place, and we're into the QFs of the LC.

The only thing I would agree with you on is the overestimation of this squad of ours. There was a giant lie when Moyes left that he'd left us in a good state and the next manager coming in would benefit from his good house keeping. That was a huge fallacy. He left an ageing squad that needed gutting and replacing. Martinez plaited sawdust in that first season largely with the form of the players he brought in that summer (Barry, Lukaku, Deulofeu and McCarthy). Last season, embroiled in more games than we could handle and not having started the restructuring required because of it, we buckled and the Moyes era squad fell to pieces finally. This season we are seeing gutsier performances mixed with a sprinkling of very good displays and the rebuilding of the squad slowly but surely (although with Barry and Howard acting to keep the average age of a younger squad up...and that will be sorted sooner rather than later).

You and a few others seem determined to avoid the positives though. Why? I dont know. There is plenty this season to be content about. It's not perfect by a long chalk, but we have got off to a reasonable/good start. Why not just acknowledge that?

An absolute lie and a very strange way of trying to make me look like a doom and gloomer.

I am just a little more balanced than you judging by your posts and can see things from both sides. That way I don't have to make daft posts covering my arse when something goes either way

As I said in my post Saturday about 13 points out of 30....it's all a bit meh IMO! If you can take massive positives from that then we just look at things differently.

West Ham have beaten Chelsea, Arsenal (away), Livepool (away) Man City (away) and Crystal palace (away).....what was that drivvel about us having the toughest fixtures of any PL team? There is only Man U and Spurs that we have faced from the top 6 last season that they haven't yet and they have won all of theirs! Stop using made up blag tactics to undermine others posts Mr DaveK, I am fortunately not that dumb to swallow it.

Not trying to get into a slanging match with you here, I just notice you seem to adopt certain tactics when somebody does not go along with your point of view.

 

[bicycleheader]

there is ALOT of unconstructive criticism and almost joy when Martinez does something a bit odd/gets a bad result, I find it perculiar

In fairness that is the same across any number of themes whether it is Bobby, Osman, Martinez, Howard....the list goes on.

Many posters don´t add much to any debate other than unconstructive criticism, negativity or snide comments and love pouncing on a chance to bang the same drum.

To be fair though, it can be the same with some other posters when something positive happens that seemingly backs up their opinion.

Lets be honest, removing the above would clear out half the forum!

 

[riddick]

I said this last year and I will say it again: I'd LOVE for someone to tell me what they do in training. Because we dont look particularly good at anything.

We dont press hard (or even really at all), we dont pass well, we dont do movement off the ball, we dont do defensive work that well, we are just....and i cannot stress this enough..AWFUL at corners on both sides of the pitch and half the team looks shattered by 70minutes.

 

[Lanolin]

I dont have to draw anyone away from anything. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Here we stand in the last days of October: played 13; won 6; drew 4; lost 3. We have the toughest opening 10 fixtures handed to any PL team behind us, stand at midtable and within 3 points of a European place, and we're into the QFs of the LC.

The only thing I would agree with you on is the overestimation of this squad of ours. There was a giant lie when Moyes left that he'd left us in a good state and the next manager coming in would benefit from his good house keeping. That was a huge fallacy. He left an ageing squad that needed gutting and replacing. Martinez plaited sawdust in that first season largely with the form of the players he brought in that summer (Barry, Lukaku, Deulofeu and McCarthy). Last season, embroiled in more games than we could handle and not having started the restructuring required because of it, we buckled and the Moyes era squad fell to pieces finally. This season we are seeing gutsier performances mixed with a sprinkling of very good displays and the rebuilding of the squad slowly but surely (although with Barry and Howard acting to keep the average age of a younger squad up...and that will be sorted sooner rather than later).

You and a few others seem determined to avoid the positives though. Why? I dont know. There is plenty this season to be content about. It's not perfect by a long chalk, but we have got off to a reasonable/good start. Why not just acknowledge that?

I'm not sure we can blame Moyes for leaving an ageing squad. Since coming in Roberto has signed Barry, Kone, Alcaraz and Eto'o, and given new contracts to Hibbert, Osman and Howard. He's also signed players like Lennon and McGeady, who are very much in the 'experienced campaigner' mould and won't be long term solutions. Lets try to move away from this idea of Martinez being brilliant for young players, he's STILL picking Howard over Robles, Barry is a nailed on starter over Besic, and Kone and Lennon have been preferred to Deulofeu a number of times. Last season he picked a half fit Tony Hibbert at left back rather than play the England under 21 regular on the bench and he recently gave an interview in which he claimed that Hibbert would still be ahead of Browning in his thoughts were he not injured. Was it true? I don't know, but I wouldn't rule it out.

He plays young players when he needs to and when he feels they're the best option. Just like Moyes did, and just like any decent manager should do. I have no problem with his handling of young players, I think he's doing fine, but the idea that he's revolutionised the make up of the squad is just plain wrong.