Roberto Martinez discussion

[davek]

I'm not sure we can blame Moyes for leaving an ageing squad. Since coming in Roberto has signed Barry, Kone, Alcaraz and Eto'o, and given new contracts to Hibbert, Osman and Howard. He's also signed players like Lennon and McGeady, who are very much in the 'experienced campaigner' mould and won't be long term solutions. Lets try to move away from this idea of Martinez being brilliant for young players, he's STILL picking Howard over Robles, Barry is a nailed on starter over Besic, and Kone and Lennon have been preferred to Deulofeu a number of times. Last season he picked a half fit Tony Hibbert at left back rather than play the England under 21 regular on the bench and he recently gave an interview in which he claimed that Hibbert would still be ahead of Browning in his thoughts were he not injured. Was it true? I don't know, but I wouldn't rule it out.

He plays young players when he needs to and when he feels they're the best option. Just like Moyes did, and just like any decent manager should do. I have no problem with his handling of young players, I think he's doing fine, but the idea that he's revolutionised the make up of the squad is just plain wrong.

Eto'o and Alcarez were peripheral figures meant to fill a gap (Alcarez) or arrive and play for a season (Eto'o). Barry was simply a top class performer at City and that was a no brainer bringing him in to settle things down for him first season. Hibbert and Osman getting the odd game is neither here nor there - they are not regulars anymore. Generally there's a progression away from the old guard with Howard being the exception that looks increasingly in need of attention. But look at the genuine first teamers now aged 21 or below: Browning, Galloway, Barkley, Stones, Deolofeu, and the age group just above between the ages of 21-25: Funes Mori, Besic, Oviedo, McCarthy, Robles, Lukaku.

We can conceivably put out a team of players under 25 and they wouldn't be far off being our very best team. And that's with the likes of the youngish Cleverley and Coleman left out of the reckoning.

It's implausible to make a case that Martinez has not transformed us in this respect.

 

[davek]

I think you are right on that. It's partly down to lots of teams spending money this season. Nobody could say they had a "bad" pre season. Newcastle spent 50 million net. Sunderland signed a Dutch international Lens etc. I think that gave a lot of the fans of those clubs optimism and belief to go for the top 10.

I think now though as sackings kick in and the reality of a relegation dogfight as well you will start to see sides playing more cautiously. I hope Allardyce comes out and attacks. However Sunderland's best chance to win is to sit back, when they have the ball whack it forward and hope for a mistake from our defence and hope they can get some territory that they can turn into a cross.

To me the next 9/10 games are going to be massive for Martinez. We need to see whether against poorer teams we can play with a speed and intensity that makes us difficult to handle or whether we will adopt a more conservative approach.

I regret to say this as I want it to work for him and even if we are in 11th at Christmas I won't call for him to be sacked, but I think he will lose a lot of fans if he is seen to be cautious over the next few weeks. He could really regret not moving Howard on when he had the chance. A lot of fans have turned on Howard and I can't see him turning that round. If we continue to persevere with Naismith (or Cleverely) on the left wing when we have 3 wingers on the bench people will hold it against him if we don't win. The same for the Barry/McCarthy situation really.

I can understand all of the above selections. In fact given the harder games we've had I agree with all of them. I think it is time now too play with two wingers though. I am still nervous of taking Barry out of the team mind as I think he was one of our best players against Arsenal. Likewise dropping Howard would be a huge call but probably the correct one.

In many ways Martinez suffers from Moyes before him. All of the above were criticisms of Moyes who took the stability first approach too far.

I agree that teams are more likely to start digging in from now on, that would be natural. Some of the promoted teams though seem incapable of that and have managers who, refreshingly, wont hunker down for a point (Neil and Howe and Sanchez Flores), and teams like Leicester and WHU under Ranieri and Bilic wont take that approach either.

I don't get too fixated on the league position, tbh. top half and doing well in the cups whilst adding newcomers to the first team is our target as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Lanolin]

Eto'o and Alcarez were peripheral figures meant to fill a gap (Alcarez) or arrive and play for a season (Eto'o). Barry was simply a top class performer at City and that was a no brainer bringing him in to settle things down for him first season. Hibbert and Osman getting the odd game is neither here nor there - they are not regulars anymore. Generally there's a progression away from the old guard with Howard being the exception that looks increasingly in need of attention. But look at the genuine first teamers now aged 21 or below: Browning, Galloway, Barkley, Stones, Deolofeu, and the age group just above between the ages of 21-25: Funes Mori, Besic, Oviedo, McCarthy, Robles, Lukaku.

We can conceivably put out a team of players under 25 and they wouldn't be far off being our very best team. And that's with the likes of the youngish Cleverley and Coleman left out of the reckoning.

It's implausible to make a case that Martinez has not transformed us in this respect.

It's not implausible at all. Moyes had let some players go on for a bit too long as he thought he had a 'golden generation', the age of the squad had therefore crept up a couple of years before he left. However it was clear that this was already being addressed. Stones had been brought in, Coleman became undisputed first choice, Barkley had started to play more regularly and the likes of Jelavic, Mirallas etc were all around 25 when they came in. Allied to Fellaini, Anichebe etc who were here but have been moved on, the make up of the squad wasn't massively different. Calling Browning a genuine first teamer is a bit of a leap - he's played no more than Duffy did under Moyes - and Robles is very much an understudy.

As I said earlier, this isn't a criticism of the current manager, but some people would have you believe he had a squad full of geriatrics and now we've got kids just out of nappies taking their place. It's complete bull. Hell, didn't we play the oldest team of the premier league season away at City less than a year ago?

 

[Saint Domingo]

Eto'o and Alcarez were peripheral figures meant to fill a gap (Alcarez) or arrive and play for a season (Eto'o). Barry was simply a top class performer at City and that was a no brainer bringing him in to settle things down for him first season. Hibbert and Osman getting the odd game is neither here nor there - they are not regulars anymore. Generally there's a progression away from the old guard with Howard being the exception that looks increasingly in need of attention. But look at the genuine first teamers now aged 21 or below: Browning, Galloway, Barkley, Stones, Deolofeu, and the age group just above between the ages of 21-25: Funes Mori, Besic, Oviedo, McCarthy, Robles, Lukaku.

We can conceivably put out a team of players under 25 and they wouldn't be far off being our very best team. And that's with the likes of the youngish Cleverley and Coleman left out of the reckoning.

It's implausible to make a case that Martinez has not transformed us in this respect.

You do know that Martinez's first choice back 5 are all Moyes' players? As is Oviedo, Browning has come through the academy Moyes built up coached by the coaches Moyes hired.

I agree Martinez is doing a good job evolving the squad, but making out he took an old creaking squad and swept it away is wrong. We're 3 years into Martinez's reign and Moyes' players still play vital roles in the squad. It has been a gradual and necessary transition. What shouldn't be overlooked either was the contribution of Osman and Pienaar to that first season success under Martinez. Mirallas and Naismith have also been used extensively by Martinez.

Why can't you give credit for the work Martinez has done without having to slander what Moyes did? We have a very good squad now which is the culmination of 14 years of patient building from two managers very good at recruitment and player development.

 

[bluestevon]

Eto'o and Alcarez were peripheral figures meant to fill a gap (Alcarez) or arrive and play for a season (Eto'o). Barry was simply a top class performer at City and that was a no brainer bringing him in to settle things down for him first season. Hibbert and Osman getting the odd game is neither here nor there - they are not regulars anymore. Generally there's a progression away from the old guard with Howard being the exception that looks increasingly in need of attention. But look at the genuine first teamers now aged 21 or below: Browning, Galloway, Barkley, Stones, Deolofeu, and the age group just above between the ages of 21-25: Funes Mori, Besic, Oviedo, McCarthy, Robles, Lukaku.

We can conceivably put out a team of players under 25 and they wouldn't be far off being our very best team. And that's with the likes of the youngish Cleverley and Coleman left out of the reckoning.

It's implausible to make a case that Martinez has not transformed us in this respect.

What i would say Dave to bring balanxce to that post is this

Martinez has only ever replaced a veteran player in the team once that player has either fallen out irreparably with him (Eto'o, Distin, Mirallas - possibly also), or has spent so much time in and out the team with injuries that they have eventually become a backup by default (Hibbert, Osman, Pienaar and Alcaraz)

The older players who have stayed fit have hardly missed a game when available - Howard for 2 years - Barry all last season- Jagielka - when in appalling form wasn't dropped last season and Osman - first season he was the only player to play every single game.

Martinez does trust youth no doubt about it, but he has to be given a helping hand to go that route in the first place - else he prefers stability even at the expense of talent

 

[Lowste]

God, we are so lucky to have superfans like you among us

Cleverly a 'sex player'. Jesus wept.

A fan with an opinion in my eyes, just as it doesn't,t sit with the anti RM bunch doesn't mean he can't have an opinion

Just saying

 

[orly]

A fan with an opinion in my eyes, just as it doesn't,t sit with the anti RM bunch doesn't mean he can't have an opinion

Just saying

Could you just clarify exactly what you are saying, particular on the subject of workhorse Cleverly being a, ahem, 'sex player'.

Not anti-RM sentiment, just not sure how anyone could possibly get that excited about Cleverly that they would describe him in erotic terms.

 

[Lowste]

Could you just clarify exactly what you are saying, particular on the subject of workhorse Cleverly being a, ahem, 'sex player'.

Not anti-RM sentiment, just not sure how anyone could possibly get that excited about Cleverly that they would describe him in erotic terms.

I get excited when I see his missus - does that count

And lets be honest here you're reply was anti RM, as simply his view didn't sit with your view...which in the main is anti RM

 

[orly]

I get excited when I see his missus - does that count

And lets be honest here you're reply was anti RM, as simply his view didn't sit with your view...which in the main is anti RM

*your

No, his huge deluge of tosh post, all several paragraphs of it, was against fans who dared to have an opinion, or be emotionally invested in the outcome of Everton matches - so I took umbrage against that.

What are my personal opinions on Martinez's management of Everton? Not a huge fan, true. Indeed if you look at the match thread from last night people are starting to get off the fence now - big ten games in his career with us.

Edit: Having seen @Paul Bernard 's below, I definitely echo much of the sentiments. I think Martinez is a good, well-meaning sort and deserves massive praise for his treatment of Kendall and others, but from the highs of the first season it has been feast or famine since - and plenty of the latter.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

Firstly, I said we have made a reasonable/good start to the season. Nothing unbalanced about that. Secondly, you downplay the fixture list we were handed for the first 10 games when almost everyone agreed at the start of the season it was horrendous (and with good reason, given 8/10 matches have been against top 8 teams from last season).

WHU and Leicester have had unbelievable starts to the season. Good for them. But they've had easier starts than us: WHU have played 4 games against top 8 teams from last season, Leicester 3 games. Let's see how they get on in the next 10 games.

Can I just say that whilst I agree on your point about playing the top 8 - a run that could cause some shocks or look like a total train wreck, the 8 teams you mentioned are were Everton fans want us to be. If you also believe we should be up there given the history of the club etc then I don't see why people who doubt Martinez have to be labelled as anti-Martinez.
Let me give you a example of what I mean:

I think Martinez is too stubborn.
I think he has his favourites like Moyes did.
I think he needs to go back to basics in training such as set pieces.
I have never seen a more horrific performance than I did Hull away on NYD.

On the other hand:

I love the way he talks about us with respect. Big club should be back the top for example.
I love the way he was ambitious enough to go after Romelu and Delboy.
I love the way he treated Kendall with the respect the legend deserves before his passing.
I love the way he attacked Liverpool at home 3-3 draw and United away 0-1 win.

All of the above are real. They are pro's and Con's of bobby the man and bobby the manager. I was worried sick last year that relegation was a possibility (something we spoke about many a time) because he was stubborn I wanted him gone at one point, I was also gutted to be thinking this because he was full of respect for us as a club.

Unfortunately I don't see any of the above changing, for better or for worse, I don't want him to get sacked as a person but as a manager he is far too stubborn so for the better of the club......... you know what I mean.

I think many of the posters here think something similar. Just because you think he isn't taking us anywhere doesn't exactly mean you want him sacked, it just means you wish he would change his approach or inevitably he will have to walk away. Same way I thought you were pro-Martinez to the point of blindness but we realised that it was maybe just about being patient. You had more of it than I did. Maybe we should give him another season to see where we end up. People need to stop getting on someone's back because they think Martinez and his philosophy just aren't working. You can disagree with his approach without it meaning you want him sacked as a result.

 

[mkrudden]

*your

No, his huge deluge of tosh post, all several paragraphs of it, was against fans who dared to have an opinion, or be emotionally invested in the outcome of Everton matches - so I took umbrage against that.

What are my personal opinions on Martinez's management of Everton? Not a huge fan, true. Indeed if you look at the match thread from last night people are starting to get off the fence now - big ten games in his career with us.

Correcting people's grammar. Cringing for you here mate. You're really 'on one' lately. We are all blues together you know?

and his original post wasnt against 'those who have an opinion', instead it was against those who seem to be venting their spleen without any perspective.

It's his opinion, it's a forum.

Can't we all be friends? x

 

[catcherintherye]

I agree that teams are more likely to start digging in from now on, that would be natural. Some of the promoted teams though seem incapable of that and have managers who, refreshingly, wont hunker down for a point (Neil and Howe and Sanchez Flores), and teams like Leicester and WHU under Ranieri and Bilic wont take that approach either.

I don't get too fixated on the league position, tbh. top half and doing well in the cups whilst adding newcomers to the first team is our target as far as I'm concerned.

I think you are right, people will forgive him a 10th or 9th finish if we have a good go in the cups and are seen to be having a good go in the league. I think that a lot of fans will become frustrated though if he resorts to a more cautious approach in games. I'm not trying to have a go at him, I really want him to succeed but I think people will be frustrated if we don't win games and the likes of Barry, Naismith & Howard remain fixtures.

I think Sunderland is a good opportunity for us. I'd like to see us getting Mirallas, Barkley and Deulofeu into the same team.

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

Correcting people's grammar. Cringing for you here mate. You're really 'on one' lately. We are all blues together you know?

and his original post wasnt against 'those who have an opinion', instead it was against those who seem to be venting their spleen without any perspective.

It's his opinion, it's a forum.

Can't we all be friends? x

Aye...

Group hug

and move on.​

 

[catcherintherye]

It's not implausible at all. Moyes had let some players go on for a bit too long as he thought he had a 'golden generation', the age of the squad had therefore crept up a couple of years before he left. However it was clear that this was already being addressed. Stones had been brought in, Coleman became undisputed first choice, Barkley had started to play more regularly and the likes of Jelavic, Mirallas etc were all around 25 when they came in. Allied to Fellaini, Anichebe etc who were here but have been moved on, the make up of the squad wasn't massively different. Calling Browning a genuine first teamer is a bit of a leap - he's played no more than Duffy did under Moyes - and Robles is very much an understudy.

As I said earlier, this isn't a criticism of the current manager, but some people would have you believe he had a squad full of geriatrics and now we've got kids just out of nappies taking their place. It's complete bull. Hell, didn't we play the oldest team of the premier league season away at City less than a year ago?

I think Davek is a bit too critical of the Moyes regime. We were nowhere near as in a hole as when Smith took over. He also had a lot of first team players who had shown themselves very capable of finishing in the top 6 or .

I don't think what can be doubted though if Martinez has looked to freshen the team up with younger players. There is no way on earth Browning would have made any first team appearances has Moyes continued. It's doubtful Stones would have ever played at centre half and I also have doubts whether we'd have ever seen Barkley. The Likes of Garbutt also wouldn't have been given much game time. This alongside signings such as McCarthy, Lukaku and Deulofeu have reduced our age massively.

There are many things I can criticise on but he is giving younger players a chance.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

Correcting people's grammar. Cringing for you here mate. You're really 'on one' lately. We are all blues together you know?

and his original post wasnt against 'those who have an opinion', instead it was against those who seem to be venting their spleen without any perspective.

It's his opinion, it's a forum.

Can't we all be friends? x

Aye...

Group hug

and move on.​

*In the voice of Attenborough*

And here we see the young female @RAFUH being welcomed into the family of GOT by the pack of groucho, woolly, esk, roydo, chico, Spurting and Rudden. the pack will eventually fight their way to become the alpha male and in return take home the spoils.