Roberto Martinez discussion

[Steve Wigan]

Stones and Barkley were nowhere near in the first team reckoning when Moyes was here. Jelavic was 27 when Moyes left and Mirallas was 25 when he signed.

Moyes acknowledged himself 6 months before leaving that the team he had was in need of younger players.

There's absolutely nowhere to go with your argument that Moyes didn't leave an ageing first team squad or that Martinez hasn't transformed the squad in that respect. You're flogging a dead horse there.

All very tRUe Dave, and of course, Moyes knew 6 months before he left that he was leaving to go to Man Utd..........

 

[davek]

That is Sheedy's opinion, not saying if it was right or wrong, but Kenwright openly talked about how Finch Farm was driven by David Moyes with the desire to get the academy training ground closer. He then played a whole host of academy players in the first team when he was there. Some were good enough some weren't.

Moyes recognised we had a bit of an ageing squad yes, hence his buys of Stones etc. But you were making out that Martinez got left a geriatric rubbish squad. That's not the case as can be seen in the current composite of Martinez's first 11. Your refusal to give Moyes any credit for anything, and your tactic of using this to exaggerate Martinez's successes not only devalues what are real achievements by Martinez but makes your arguments illogical.

Martinez has very cleverly evolved what was a good squad adding genuine quality to what was already there. If anything I wish the transition had been quicker. Proper replacements for Howard Osman and Pienaar should already be here. But he's done it cautiously and has retained the core of our very good players from Moyes' days.

It's Sheedy's opinion and I'll take it over Kenwright's any day of the week.

He played young players, yes. But then he shelved them or loaned them out very quickly and didn't persevere with them. That's the point.

 

[davek]

Doesn't matter if he is top quality or not. Is he better than Howard? Yes. Therefore a meritocrat would play him. Martinez won't because he plays favourites.

Is he? He was eviscerated by the fan base of this club until a relatively short time ago.

Look, there's no obvious no brainer about our GK choices.

 

[Toffeelover]

One half decent display from Robles?

I confess, I'd rather he did go with Robles, but that's nowhere near saying that Joel is the answer to our GK situation. He's not top quality.

I agree Dave but on form at the moment should rate another game or two rather than TH. However do not think the subject of GK will be attended to until next summer.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

The thing with bringing younger players in is to actually give them a chance to play. Look at the way he arsed about with Coleman and Barkley's development. Look at how we had Mustaphi and Dier and he completely ignored the talent there and got shut. He was an unbelievably wasteful manager where younger players were concerned.

There's no comparison with Moyes and Martinez on this. I'm not saying that Martinez is the guru of bringing youngsters through either, just that Moyes was absolutely appalling at it. I'm pretty bewildered how anyone could make a case for him on this issue because he was so utterly dogmatic and stubborn on it.

I actually like the way he brought Coleman through, the idea of making mistakes at right wing was better than right back, I understood his ideas behind such a move. I also understand why he didn't just throw Barkley into the deep end, he was showing small glimpses of his quality but also making mistakes, so I agree that he didn't give him a consistent run but again I also understand the method behind the madness.

Lets both be honest now, there is not many people who thought Dier or Mustafi would make it at this level, if you are one of the few then I understand your sense of frustration. I follow a lot of football around the world and raved on about the likes of Aguero, Hazard, Lloris and such, Dier and Mustafi weren't exactly setting the world alight like those mentioned were.

Also take into account the likes of Arteta, Fellaini, Pienaar, Lescott, Jags, Baines, Anichebe, Vaughan, all players in the same bracket as those Martinez has given a chance to, I think its safe to say that Martinez fell on the likes of Galloway and stones due to injuries. The run in the team they have both had is just as likely to happen under Martinez as it is moyes although under Martinez it happened a lot quicker as someone else mentioned above.

 

[davek]

All very tRUe Dave, and of course, Moyes knew 6 months before he left that he was leaving to go to Man Utd..........

Exactly. He had no need to replenish the squad, and he didn't. What he did was to tell everyone the club was ship shape and left a ticking demographic bomb for his successor to defuse.

 

[catcherintherye]

It's Sheedy's opinion and I'll take it over Kenwright's any day of the week.

He played young players, yes. But then he shelved them or loaned them out very quickly and didn't persevere with them. That's the point.

I think there has to be a balance with this. Moyes was here for 11 years and in truth the man who first came through the door was different to the man who left. I think Moyes grew increasingly conservative as time went by and was happy to keep us in the top 6 but never looking to go much beyond it. He wasn't helped by the board never really giving him a chance. How far this was a consequence of Kenwrights actions, or his natural persona is up for debate.

What can't be doubted though was the excitement I felt when Rooney, a 16 year old first came through. No other manager has ever given a 16 year old such game time. It was remarkable really.

He broke up Smiths team and built his own, around players like Osman, Hibbert, Rooney, then younger players like Cahill & Arteta. I just think in his last few years he resolved to stick with the players he trusted.

I always go back to Ferguson. He often spoke about how getting rid of players hurt him greatly, but he knew he had to do it. Moyes I don't think was ever prepared too. It is easier not too in many ways.

The biggest difference between Martinez and Moyes though, was Moyes was interested in finding the outstanding talent from the age group. The Rooney or the Barkley. I don't think he had much interest beyond it. He was looking for people who were ready at 18 or he lost interest.

Martinez is looking at how to develop them more, and introduce them more gradually.

Moyes put in a fantastic system regarding youth too. Great coaches, infrastructure, scouting, networks. Our academy is incredibly strong now and he played a part in that. However by the end he wasn't ready to maximise this.

 

[davek]

I actually like the way he brought Coleman through, the idea of making mistakes at right wing was better than right back, I understood his ideas behind such a move. I also understand why he didn't just throw Barkley into the deep end, he was showing small glimpses of his quality but also making mistakes, so I agree that he didn't give him a consistent run but again I also understand the method behind the madness.

Lets both be honest now, there is not many people who thought Dier or Mustafi would make it at this level, if you are one of the few then I understand your sense of frustration. I follow a lot of football around the world and raved on about the likes of Aguero, Hazard, Lloris and such, Dier and Mustafi weren't exactly setting the world alight like those mentioned were.

Also take into account the likes of Arteta, Fellaini, Pienaar, Lescott, Jags, Baines, Anichebe, Vaughan, all players in the same bracket as those Martinez has given a chance to, I think its safe to say that Martinez fell on the likes of Galloway and stones due to injuries. The run in the team they have both had is just as likely to happen under Martinez as it is moyes although under Martinez it happened a lot quicker as someone else mentioned above.

On Coleman: when he eventually did play him at RB after Blackpool showed him it was possible, he slung him out of the team after one mistake when he gave the ball away that led to a goal. He was very resistant to playing younger players. Barkley? He sickened that lad. No question. I half expected him to be loaned out to the Garston RBL at one point.

You say be reasonable about Mustaphi and Dier, but they were good players and he didn't spot it. I doubt they'd have left under Martinez given what we've seen with Galloway and Browning's development, do you?

 

[Toffeelover]

Exactly. He had no need to replenish the squad, and he didn't. What he did was to tell everyone the club was ship shape and left a ticking demographic bomb for his successor to defuse.

This, irrespective of who would be the bloke to replace him.. He utterly lost my respect for him over that behaviour in the last half of that season, which is why I never post his name but refer to him as our EX. As for Rooney wanting him back for the testimonial fine as long as it is at OT and not GP. Would not want him any where near GP ever again.

 

[Steve Wigan]

Exactly. He had no need to replenish the squad, and he didn't. What he did was to tell everyone the club was ship shape and left a ticking demographic bomb for his successor to defuse.

I always felt that Moyes was 'building something' for David Moyes, not for Everton, but I genuinely feel that Martinez wants to be here long term to build something for Everton.

 

[davek]

I think there has to be a balance with this. Moyes was here for 11 years and in truth the man who first came through the door was different to the man who left. I think Moyes grew increasingly conservative as time went by and was happy to keep us in the top 6 but never looking to go much beyond it. He wasn't helped by the board never really giving him a chance. How far this was a consequence of Kenwrights actions, or his natural persona is up for debate.

What can't be doubted though was the excitement I felt when Rooney, a 16 year old first came through. No other manager has ever given a 16 year old such game time. It was remarkable really.

He broke up Smiths team and built his own, around players like Osman, Hibbert, Rooney, then younger players like Cahill & Arteta. I just think in his last few years he resolved to stick with the players he trusted.

I always go back to Ferguson. He often spoke about how getting rid of players hurt him greatly, but he knew he had to do it. Moyes I don't think was ever prepared too. It is easier not too in many ways.

The biggest difference between Martinez and Moyes though, was Moyes was interested in finding the outstanding talent from the age group. The Rooney or the Barkley. I don't think he had much interest beyond it. He was looking for people who were ready at 18 or he lost interest.

Martinez is looking at how to develop them more, and introduce them more gradually.

Moyes put in a fantastic system regarding youth too. Great coaches, infrastructure, scouting, networks. Our academy is incredibly strong now and he played a part in that. However by the end he wasn't ready to maximise this.

Let's face it on Rooney: how could he have not given a talent like that a game? It'd have been like trying to put cap on a volcano. The lad was outrageously precocious. And even there he wrapped him in cotton wool for far too many games.

As for breaking Smith's team up: those players were practically out of retirement as it was. There was absolutely no alternative to getting shut of them.

 

[Goat]

On Coleman: when he eventually did play him at RB after Blackpool showed him it was possible, he slung him out of the team after one mistake when he gave the ball away that led to a goal. He was very resistant to playing younger players. Barkley? He sickened that lad. No question. I half expected him to be loaned out to the Garston RBL at one point.

You say be reasonable about Mustaphi and Dier, but they were good players and he didn't spot it. I doubt they'd have left under Martinez given what we've seen with Galloway and Browning's development, do you?

You think Martinez would drop Jags or Stones to play a 19year old Mustaphi or an 18 year old Dier?

LOL

 

[davek]

I always felt that Moyes was 'building something' for David Moyes, not for Everton, but I genuinely feel that Martinez wants to be here long term to build something for Everton.

They're chalk and cheese, steve. Martinez will be ambitious too, but there's no way he'd see himself as big as the club he's at now; whereas the other feller saw Everton as a door mat to wipe his feet on as he went on to greater things (unbelievably given his thimbleful of talent).

 

[neil999]

You think Martinez would drop Jags or Stones to play a 19year old Mustaphi or an 18 year old Dier?

LOL

he put galloway in ahead of oviedo and garbutt..

L O L

 

[davek]

This, irrespective of who would be the bloke to replace him.. He utterly lost my respect for him over that behaviour in the last half of that season, which is why I never post his name but refer to him as our EX. As for Rooney wanting him back for the testimonial fine as long as it is at OT and not GP. Would not want him any where near GP ever again.

Persona non grata for me. He's an outsider - always has been and always will be.