Roberto Martinez discussion

[Lanolin]

I think Davek is a bit too critical of the Moyes regime. We were nowhere near as in a hole as when Smith took over. He also had a lot of first team players who had shown themselves very capable of finishing in the top 6 or .

I don't think what can be doubted though if Martinez has looked to freshen the team up with younger players. There is no way on earth Browning would have made any first team appearances has Moyes continued. It's doubtful Stones would have ever played at centre half and I also have doubts whether we'd have ever seen Barkley. The Likes of Garbutt also wouldn't have been given much game time. This alongside signings such as McCarthy, Lukaku and Deulofeu have reduced our age massively.

There are many things I can criticise on but he is giving younger players a chance.

Without wanting to get too involved in a Moyes/Martinez debate, I honestly just don't think what you're saying is true.

Firstly, I'm not disputing that he gives players a chance - I stated in my last post that I agree with his handling of young players. But there seems to be some sort of myth that Martinez is always giving the young lads a chance whereas Moyes wouldn't give them a second look. It simply isn't true.

Martinez has brought in Deulofeu and Lukaku which is great and brings the average age down, McCarthy too when he first came in. But Moyes did that too, it's easy to forget that Fellaini, Yobo and Arteta were actually the same sort of age when they came over, Baines is another and Jags and Lescott weren't much older.

I made the point the other day that I like that Martinez shows faith in youngsters. I don't think Moyes would have given Galloway, Barkley and Stones the responsibility that Martinez has. Barkley and Stones would have come through but not as quickly. Saying Browning would be nowhere is a really strange one - and this is where i think the myth comes in. Moyes played far more of our young players - he just didn't give them runs in the team like Martinez has. The way Browning has come through is absolutely no different to the way Duffy did under Moyes - only Duffy was younger. McAleny hasn't played a minute of domestic football under Martinez, nobody in the mould of Nick Chadwick, Kieron Agard or Jose Baxter has been given a premier league game, and Garbutt is still nowhere near under Martinez never mind Moyes.

 

[davek]

It's not implausible at all. Moyes had let some players go on for a bit too long as he thought he had a 'golden generation', the age of the squad had therefore crept up a couple of years before he left. However it was clear that this was already being addressed. Stones had been brought in, Coleman became undisputed first choice, Barkley had started to play more regularly and the likes of Jelavic, Mirallas etc were all around 25 when they came in. Allied to Fellaini, Anichebe etc who were here but have been moved on, the make up of the squad wasn't massively different. Calling Browning a genuine first teamer is a bit of a leap - he's played no more than Duffy did under Moyes - and Robles is very much an understudy.

As I said earlier, this isn't a criticism of the current manager, but some people would have you believe he had a squad full of geriatrics and now we've got kids just out of nappies taking their place. It's complete bull. Hell, didn't we play the oldest team of the premier league season away at City less than a year ago?

Stones and Barkley were nowhere near in the first team reckoning when Moyes was here. Jelavic was 27 when Moyes left and Mirallas was 25 when he signed.

Moyes acknowledged himself 6 months before leaving that the team he had was in need of younger players.

There's absolutely nowhere to go with your argument that Moyes didn't leave an ageing first team squad or that Martinez hasn't transformed the squad in that respect. You're flogging a dead horse there.

 

[davek]

You do know that Martinez's first choice back 5 are all Moyes' players? As is Oviedo, Browning has come through the academy Moyes built up coached by the coaches Moyes hired.

I agree Martinez is doing a good job evolving the squad, but making out he took an old creaking squad and swept it away is wrong. We're 3 years into Martinez's reign and Moyes' players still play vital roles in the squad. It has been a gradual and necessary transition. What shouldn't be overlooked either was the contribution of Osman and Pienaar to that first season success under Martinez. Mirallas and Naismith have also been used extensively by Martinez.

Why can't you give credit for the work Martinez has done without having to slander what Moyes did? We have a very good squad now which is the culmination of 14 years of patient building from two managers very good at recruitment and player development.

Dont talk about the Academy as a Moyes success mate, we know from Sheedy that the man wouldn't go near the place.

As for Moyes and slandering him: maybe you'll listen to the man's words on the matter...

"I do think there is a big rebuilding job to go on. We have a little bit of an ageing team...We have not invested an awful lot over the last five or six years so we have to now be looking to see how we do that, how we get the team moving forward and get some younger players in as well as developing our own. That is the hard bit. We have a few players in their 30s and we have to start looking to replace them" - David Moyes

 

[orly]

*In the voice of Attenborough*

And here we see the young female @RAFUH being welcomed into the family of GOT by the pack of groucho, woolly, esk, roydo, chico, Spurting and Rudden. the pack will eventually fight their way to become the alpha male and in return take home the spoils.

There's one down, quite happy with his laminated but now slightly edge-worn Baines photo

 

[davek]

What i would say Dave to bring balanxce to that post is this

Martinez has only ever replaced a veteran player in the team once that player has either fallen out irreparably with him (Eto'o, Distin, Mirallas - possibly also), or has spent so much time in and out the team with injuries that they have eventually become a backup by default (Hibbert, Osman, Pienaar and Alcaraz)

The older players who have stayed fit have hardly missed a game when available - Howard for 2 years - Barry all last season- Jagielka - when in appalling form wasn't dropped last season and Osman - first season he was the only player to play every single game.

Martinez does trust youth no doubt about it, but he has to be given a helping hand to go that route in the first place - else he prefers stability even at the expense of talent

Yes, a lot of the changing of the guard at club's is a natural process. But we surely cant be arguing with the fact that when older players are doing a job they should remain in the first team set up? I mean, I'm not Jagielka's biggest fan but it'd be ridiculous to suggest he hasn't done enough to remain in the first team squad and really competitive for a starting place. Barry was no worse or better than anyone last season - the big issue then was that he was nowhere near the faultless performer of his first season here. So he's another one who you couldn't leave out and ignore as a potential first team starter.

What do the others you refer to show you?: Eto'o - straight out the door as soon as it was possible; Alcarez - no new contract and out; Mirallas and Distin marginalised.

I'd say he's been pretty decisive in making sure that players who stand a chance of a game are good enough and he's been pretty age-blind about it. Martinez is a meritocrat and that works generally in football in younger players' favour. Hence we see the shift to a first team chocca with players under 25.

 

[orly]

Martinez is a meritocrat

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...-robles-match-winning-capital-one-cup-display

 

[Deleted member 24970]

Stones and Barkley were nowhere near in the first team reckoning when Moyes was here. Jelavic was 27 when Moyes left and Mirallas was 25 when he signed.

Moyes acknowledged himself 6 months before leaving that the team he had was in need of younger players.

There's absolutely nowhere to go with your argument that Moyes didn't leave an ageing first team squad or that Martinez hasn't transformed the squad in that respect. You're flogging a dead horse there.

He did buy Stones, Coleman, Mirallas, fellaini and baines who are still around today, Martinez sold fellaini and brought in barry and McCarthy. So in that respect I think you both have valid points, the spine of our team is still based on experienced players, howard, Jagielka, barry and to some degree Baines, three of those bought by moyes. Point being I agree Martinez is better with youth however moyes was looking to the future but sort of behind the scenes if you like.
It sometimes seems that you do slander Moyes to a degree yet you bend over backwards to support Martinez.

Not having a go Da-vek, just a observation based on our previous debates.

 

[RAFUH]

*In the voice of Attenborough*

And here we see the young female @RAFUH being welcomed into the family of GOT by the pack of groucho, woolly, esk, roydo, chico, Spurting and Rudden. the pack will eventually fight their way to become the alpha male and in return take home the spoils.

How very dare you!
Insinuating I'm a brunette...I'm outraged.


On topic
Love Roberto me....that could change of course if we continue to stagnate

 

[toffeejack]

Maybe not. Apparently there's a group of Evertonians who dwell in caves and are conspiring to get Sherwood in instead. Bear in mind that it's quite frightening what these people are prepared to do. They'd willingly kill the club to see Martinez out, so I've heard.

seen him linked with swindon, ouch

 

[bicycleheader]

one observation I've been sitting on for a while comes from the U21 game vs Preston a couple of months. All of the coaching staff were there and sat just a few seats away from me. Everyone seemed in a good mood, lots of bonhomie .. then Martinez arrived, barely acknowledged anyone and sat a couple of rows in front of them. He cut an isolated figure, unhappy.

I've long wondered if he suffers from the Napoleon complex.

Martinez reminds me of a boss I had. This guy lacked stature (& was conscious about it), had no personality that most people could readily associate with, competence was questionable, surrounded himself with sycophants whose competence was also questionable, said all the right things to the people who mattered, inc. partners .. all in all a horrible excuse of a man. Neither he or his sycophants could deliver, some sycophants were sacrificed, ultimately he was exposed for the chancer he was / is, was paid off and joined another Global 100 company in a similar senior management / junior director role.

I fear that we are stuck with Martinez for the foreseeable future & we'll be expected to accept mediocrity during his 'reign'. Any success will be luck rather than design. He is what he is .. and anyone who's ever worked for a diminutive latino who's out of his depth will understand.

Ah, the old dimunitive latino boss stereotype....

 

[Saint Domingo]

Dont talk about the Academy as a Moyes success mate, we know from Sheedy that the man wouldn't go near the place.

As for Moyes and slandering him: maybe you'll listen to the man's words on the matter...

That is Sheedy's opinion, not saying if it was right or wrong, but Kenwright openly talked about how Finch Farm was driven by David Moyes with the desire to get the academy training ground closer. He then played a whole host of academy players in the first team when he was there. Some were good enough some weren't.

Moyes recognised we had a bit of an ageing squad yes, hence his buys of Stones etc. But you were making out that Martinez got left a geriatric rubbish squad. That's not the case as can be seen in the current composite of Martinez's first 11. Your refusal to give Moyes any credit for anything, and your tactic of using this to exaggerate Martinez's successes not only devalues what are real achievements by Martinez but makes your arguments illogical.

Martinez has very cleverly evolved what was a good squad adding genuine quality to what was already there. If anything I wish the transition had been quicker. Proper replacements for Howard Osman and Pienaar should already be here. But he's done it cautiously and has retained the core of our very good players from Moyes' days.

 

[davek]

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...-robles-match-winning-capital-one-cup-display

One half decent display from Robles?

I confess, I'd rather he did go with Robles, but that's nowhere near saying that Joel is the answer to our GK situation. He's not top quality.

 

[Saint Domingo]

One half decent display from Robles?

I confess, I'd rather he did go with Robles, but that's nowhere near saying that Joel is the answer to our GK situation. He's not top quality.

Doesn't matter if he is top quality or not. Is he better than Howard? Yes. Therefore a meritocrat would play him. Martinez won't because he plays favourites.

 

[orly]

One half decent display from Robles?

I confess, I'd rather he did go with Robles, but that's nowhere near saying that Joel is the answer to our GK situation. He's not top quality.

Just going by the maxim of only going as good as recent form, picking him on merit.

I'd also argue that fundamentally neither are good enough.

 

[davek]

He did buy Stones, Coleman, Mirallas, fellaini and baines who are still around today, Martinez sold fellaini and brought in barry and McCarthy. So in that respect I think you both have valid points, the spine of our team is still based on experienced players, howard, Jagielka, barry and to some degree Baines, three of those bought by moyes. Point being I agree Martinez is better with youth however moyes was looking to the future but sort of behind the scenes if you like.
It sometimes seems that you do slander Moyes to a degree yet you bend over backwards to support Martinez.

Not having a go Da-vek, just a observation based on our previous debates.

The thing with bringing younger players in is to actually give them a chance to play. Look at the way he arsed about with Coleman and Barkley's development. Look at how we had Mustaphi and Dier and he completely ignored the talent there and got shut. He was an unbelievably wasteful manager where younger players were concerned.

There's no comparison with Moyes and Martinez on this. I'm not saying that Martinez is the guru of bringing youngsters through either, just that Moyes was absolutely appalling at it. I'm pretty bewildered how anyone could make a case for him on this issue because he was so utterly dogmatic and stubborn on it.