Roberto Martinez discussion

[Saint Domingo]

Neither lad was willing to stay and wait for a place, its to their credit, they believed in their own ability and went out and got first team football elsewhere, its amazing that people still have this idea that Moyes drove them both out.

I mean they basically did the same as Baxter did, but without the massive amounts of beak and with a lot more talent.

Dier wasn't even our player. He was on loan from Sporting and thought quite rightly that he had a better chance of making their first team than ours because of how good our defenders were. We couldn't even afford him if we'd wanted to keep him. Not many prem managers would have gone for Mustafi, he was too short, not many centrebacks are good enough to overcome this. If he turns out to be fair enough. Again though this was 5 years ago at least, he's only just broken through now. Deffo worth a first team place five years ago though, Moyes you clown why did you not have your crystal ball out!

 

[Saint Domingo]

Moyes was essentially a 'football man'.....with limited experience or knowledge beyond the world of playing and coaching. Martinez played football to a reasonable level, but is also a qualified physio, and more importantly, qualified in business and PR. He brings for more and a much wider range of talent and skill to the management table than Moyes ever could.

This is just becoming ridiculous. Apart from the obvious absurdity of this argument, how has Martinez's education as a physio helped our situation in any way? Does Martinez's PR experience help us in any way on the football pitch? Does his business certificate? No.

 

[bluestevon]

I think that's why there was so much hope pinned on getting Yarmolenko last summer.

Will get him in January mate, MArtinez is stubborn once he sets his sights on a player

sadly sometimes we end up with a mcGeady to prove that stubbornness lol

 

[davek]

They weren't good enough. He persevered for too long with some of them. Vaughan and Anichebe clearly weren't good enough but he kept Anichebe in particular in and around the first team for a long time. He can't even make the West Brom team now, Vaughan is at Huddersfield. Rodwell who he played every week cannot now make the team for the worst side in the league, likewise Gosling who he also played before he spat his dummy out.

Forshaw, Baxter, Duffy, Wallace, O'kane, Bidwell, all got run outs in the league and Europe. None were good enough. None have done anything since. O'Kane has come back to the prem but looks out of his depth.

The good ones, Rooney, Rodwell (for a period) Coleman, Barkley he played and kept them in the first team squad.

I'd buy this argument if there was a generation of previous Everyon academy players plying their trade in Europes top leagues for the likes of United, City, Chelsea etc. But it's not true, there's not one who has apart from Mustafi which Everton dropped the ball on but that can happen, we had Jags, Distin and Heitinga.

Moyes indulged too many average young players and far more than any top 6 side at the time did (how many kids did Liverpool Spurs, Arsenal, United, City and Chelsea bring through in the period Moyes was there?). It's not his fault that the players were not good enough, he gave them a chance, only a few delivered.

Martinez now has a far richer pool to pick from, but again apart from confirming Barkley in the first team as a starter he has only introduced one Everton academy player which is Tyias Browning, and he has started sporadically to cover injuries. Galloway (also covering injuries) and Stones were bought (the latter by Moyes) as players that would need refining in the academy but we're ready for the first team squad (they had been playing first team for their clubs already).

You could argue that Ledson could play instead of Barry, that with no natural number 10 that Dowell should be given a go, that Browning and Galloway should not have been dropped for Coleman and Baines. Where does it end? You don't like Moyes, I get it, but this insistence that he did nothing of any value is crazy. The youth players were not there to use as a whole, people can hysterically go on about isolated incidents 'but lad remember when he played Osman in that Sunderland game' but as a general principle the good young players we had, made it into the first team squad. The others, got a chance, but weren't good enough. This was a top 6 club not some academy finishing school. We were trying to qualify for Europe most seasons and the young players we had were not as good as the first teamed, nowhere near, which is why the likes of Osman Pienaar and even Hibbert are still in the squad.

That's a pretty lame thing to claim that suddenly martinez is blessed with more academy talent. Sorry, Martinez in three seasons has gotten as much if not more use out of younger players than Moyes did in 11 seasons here.

As said: Martinez is not a particularly special case in bringing youngsters through; he just looks that way in comparison with Moyes, the King Herod of football management.

 

[roydo]

Moyes was essentially a 'football man'.....with limited experience or knowledge beyond the world of playing and coaching. Martinez played football to a reasonable level, but is also a qualified physio, and more importantly, qualified in business and PR. He brings for more and a much wider range of talent and skill to the management table than Moyes ever could.

Moyes played football. I watched him, a lot. He was actually a decent CH, and it was known when he played for Bristol City that he was one of the brighter players, and that he was studying coaching and stuff back then. He has always been a bit of a student of the game.

 

[davek]

...and with Jags out for a while, we possibly have another centre back option who will play the ball forward naturally, thus reducing the chance of Hibbo playing CB in an emergency. I'm trying to think like Roberto now......

A move Moyes wouldn't have found within him.

Moyes is an analogue manager.

He hasn't got a great reputation now. Everton fans know him as a Judas; United fans as a clown; Real Sociedad fans as that ginger Scotsman who killed the beautiful game.

 

[Steve Wigan]

This is just becoming ridiculous. Apart from the obvious absurdity of this argument, how has Martinez's education as a physio helped our situation in any way? Does Martinez's PR experience help us in any way on the football pitch? Does his business certificate? No.

Who said they helped on the pitch? The fact is they certainly help OFF the pitch, this has been apparent since the day he arrived. We have more presence in news programmes, more editorial about the club in the media in general, and the good stuff the club does off the field is always being reported. Management...not just coaching. Thats the point.

 

[davek]

Will get him in January mate, MArtinez is stubborn once he sets his sights on a player

sadly sometimes we end up with a mcGeady to prove that stubbornness lol

I sincerely hope so mate. That would be a real boost. As you say, he doesn't give up on these players.

 

[Saint Domingo]

That's a pretty lame thing to claim that suddenly martinez is blessed with more academy talent. Sorry, Martinez in three seasons has gotten as much if not more use out of younger players than Moyes did in 11 seasons here.

As said: Martinez is not a particularly special case in bringing youngsters through; he just looks that way in comparison with Moyes, the King Herod of football management.

You're just completely ignoring all the points in the argument and restating your opinion as indisputable fact.

To address your first point do you honestly believe that the academy facilities now at Finch Farm are not producing a greater number of better quality academy players than Bellefield? Again if you care to name the academy players that Moyes let 'slip through the net'? (aside from Dier who we couldn't afford and Mustafi who we dropped the ball on fair enough, but wanted to go).

In 3 years Martinez has got more use out of the young players? Who? You are mistaking bringing on young players with buying young players. Choosing to splash huge money on Lukaku and McCarthy is not getting more out of young players, it's just buying top players who happen to be young.

Like I said Browning is the only academy player that he's given any meaningful time to. Galloway and Stones were top prospects who Moyes and Martinez bought for the first team.

Browning and Galloway would still be in the academy if we hadn't have had four full backs injured. Martinez said as much, he even referenced Hibbert as ahead of Browning for the RB spot. If everyone was fit only Stones and Barkley would be in our team from the academy. Considering the obvious talent of the two that's hardly brilliant management.

You've just got a binary view of Martinez the angel and Moyes the devil. Facts, rational argument and reason won't sway you from this, you just twist every single minor fact as it suits completely ignoring most points to suit your agenda. Baffling.

 

[davek]

You've just got a binary view of Martinez the angel and Moyes the devil. Facts, rational argument and reason won't sway you from this, you just twist every single minor fact as it suits completely ignoring most points to suit your agenda. Baffling.

That's not true. I've stated a number of times here that it's not a matter of Martinez being extraordinary in making use of younger players. He's not. I dont see Moyes at one end of the spectrum and Martinez at the other. I just know that Moyes was willing to fall back on older players and only reluctantly use younger ones - more especially as his time here went on...which is why he conceded himself that the squad was top heavy with 30+ players and those in their late 20s when he left.

 

[hktoffee]

Now we got the easy run in till the match at home against Spurs on 3 January. We better step up starting from this Sunday.

 

[quasi modo]

He has recently been getting it wrong again, the football has been dire, team selection has been wrong, needs to start changing things up especially if some of his senior players aren't doing it.

It's got to the point again were I'm not looking forward to the games as it's the same mistakes, slow predictable play week in week out.

 

[njligernj]

<-------------------- Sex. Pure Sex.

Tell us more on (subtlety might be lost on you here)

• why Cleverly is a 'sex player' = Have you seen his face?

In 3 years Martinez has got more use out of the young players? Who? You are mistaking bringing on young players with buying young players. Choosing to splash huge money on Lukaku and McCarthy is not getting more out of young players, it's just buying top players who happen to be young.

Moyes had a policy which he spoke about of favouring buying older players. This doesn't mean he NEVER signed anyone young but he took the approach that we had limited resources and we are better off spending money on what is as close to a sure thing as you can get in football (vets like Distin, Neville etc.). This means both in acquisitions and retention he wasn't afraid to sign older players.

I don't consider that a bad strategy at all for a club like Everton -- especially during those years given our budget, or lack thereof -- although I know this argument you are having is based on whom did the most for youth with the conceit of that being an entirely positive attribute.

I don't consider this to be an indictment of Moyes given the Everton he managed but FWIW I have to agree with davek that Martinez seems far more willing to give significant playing time to younger players and in team building he focuses far more on what players will be like in 3-5 years than Moyes ever did.

As to who is "better" ... frankly Moyes never tried to build for the future. He might be good at it -- he does have an eye for spotting talent -- but his focus was on maximizing his more immediate returns. They have entirely different strategies for team building. Martinez is far more focused on building a team for the future from the ground up -- not sure how that's even a debate TBH.

I don't consider the distinction between buying and developing to be meaningful at this point. We have a relatively small sample size on young players for RM to "develop" since he signed and arguable how much influence he has had on current young players who signed under Moyes. Given incomplete information all we can look at is overall strategy and in that RM is clearly more willing to play youth than Moyes.

What can't be doubted though was the excitement I felt when Rooney, a 16 year old first came through. No other manager has ever given a 16 year old such game time. It was remarkable really.

Arguably we might have kept him for another year or two if he'd hid him a bit longer. Damned if you do ...

 

[Dexter]

They weren't good enough. He persevered for too long with some of them. Vaughan and Anichebe clearly weren't good enough but he kept Anichebe in particular in and around the first team for a long time. He can't even make the West Brom team now, Vaughan is at Huddersfield. Rodwell who he played every week cannot now make the team for the worst side in the league, likewise Gosling who he also played before he spat his dummy out.

Forshaw, Baxter, Duffy, Wallace, O'kane, Bidwell, all got run outs in the league and Europe. None were good enough. None have done anything since. O'Kane has come back to the prem but looks out of his depth.

The good ones, Rooney, Rodwell (for a period) Coleman, Barkley he played and kept them in the first team squad.

I'd buy this argument if there was a generation of previous Everyon academy players plying their trade in Europes top leagues for the likes of United, City, Chelsea etc. But it's not true, there's not one who has apart from Mustafi which Everton dropped the ball on but that can happen, we had Jags, Distin and Heitinga.

Moyes indulged too many average young players and far more than any top 6 side at the time did (how many kids did Liverpool Spurs, Arsenal, United, City and Chelsea bring through in the period Moyes was there?). It's not his fault that the players were not good enough, he gave them a chance, only a few delivered.

Martinez now has a far richer pool to pick from, but again apart from confirming Barkley in the first team as a starter he has only introduced one Everton academy player which is Tyias Browning, and he has started sporadically to cover injuries. Galloway (also covering injuries) and Stones were bought (the latter by Moyes) as players that would need refining in the academy but we're ready for the first team squad (they had been playing first team for their clubs already).

You could argue that Ledson could play instead of Barry, that with no natural number 10 that Dowell should be given a go, that Browning and Galloway should not have been dropped for Coleman and Baines. Where does it end? You don't like Moyes, I get it, but this insistence that he did nothing of any value is crazy. The youth players were not there to use as a whole, people can hysterically go on about isolated incidents 'but lad remember when he played Osman in that Sunderland game' but as a general principle the good young players we had, made it into the first team squad. The others, got a chance, but weren't good enough. This was a top 6 club not some academy finishing school. We were trying to qualify for Europe most seasons and the young players we had were not as good as the first teamed, nowhere near, which is why the likes of Osman Pienaar and even Hibbert are still in the squad.

Moyes was essentially a 'football man'.....with limited experience or knowledge beyond the world of playing and coaching. Martinez played football to a reasonable level, but is also a qualified physio, and more importantly, qualified in business and PR. He brings for more and a much wider range of talent and skill to the management table than Moyes ever could.

And yet Martinez is going to be nowhere near a European place for the second season on the bounce and Moyes had us there nearly every season, i can't stand the snake but the bollox spouted about him by Davek just makes me have a bit more respect for his managerial time at Everton and where he had us finishing

 

[Aar_the_Toffees]

I like to take the WBA game as an example. For the first half, we sat back and invites them to take it to us- which was expected as it's an away game. They scored two goals. Immediately, formation and tactics were changed dramatically for the second half. Not a coincidence we scored 3 goals.

Martinez is a tactician and a master at being one. We can take the game to anybody in the league. We took it to Arsenal in the second half. We beat a good Chelsea team. If he grows a pair and plays the best players each game, we will develop into a top 4 side.