Roberto Martinez discussion

[Tubey]

This thread. lol

So much passion.

Sadly the Anti Martinez/Pro Moyes folks set the tone of this thread by wanting him out after three draws.

You'll have to forgive those of us who support Martinez for going a little OTT.

See, this is the problem to me. There shouldn't be people pro- or anti-Martinez; it should just be basing opinion on what they are presented with, rather than going totally davek and pre-determining your opinion no matter what.

That is what causes most of the angst on here. There's a middle ground - you can say when the manager does things well, and you can also say when he apparently screws up, and come to a balanced overall judgement on performance rather than the character himself.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

Moyes's greatest triumph was dumbing down Everton expectations

That was it in one under Moyes, getting myself excited going the game was hard work under Moyes.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

That was it in one under Moyes, getting myself excited going the game was hard work under Moyes.

Element of truth in davek' post and your response, but honestly I think the same now under Martinez a lot of the time. First season I agree was exciting and the best consistent performances I seen since around 2004-2005 when we finished 4th.

 

[LAToffee]

The worst thing about the whole Martinez discussion is that there's a distinct lack of balance between the warring factions

The haters won't listen to the positives about Martinez and the defenders won't allow any criticism to be made against their deity

We simply must be allowed to criticise our manager when it's valid to do so. Otherwise we might as well chuck away our Blue shirts and join that cult across the park

However, always looking for a reason to tear into Martinez at every opportunity and trying to discredit him at every turn is exceedingly dirty pool and not helpful in the slightest. We've had some excellent moments with Martinez as manager and he has some very definitive positives about him. He's not flawless and does tend to repeat certain mistakes, which he should in turn be criticised for, but overall I think he could be an excellent manager if he just tightened up those areas

I will repeat my stance, even though the usual suspects will shout me down, that I think he needs to bring someone in to set up and organise the defense. I am not convinced he can do this himself, and this is going back to his Wigan days. I think he needs someone in to handle that aspect and he can handle everything else. I've seen nothing this season to make me think otherwise. The goals against tally does not tell the full story here, because as previously mentioned Howard had freakishly good games against Southampton and Spurs which earned us two undeserved clean sheets

Just commenting on the hate fest that went on here after we got through a round that saw Chelsea, Arsenal, and Man Utd get knocked out. Couldn't agree more with you that we should criticize our manager when he gets things wrong, but there are some on here who just want him fired and won't be happy until he's gone. Of course Martinez is not perfect, but he isn't the sole reason why we're not tearing up trees. In terms of your specific concern, I agree. Our defense, particularly of set pieces, is woeful. Actually, set pieces and Martinez's irrational aversion to them more generally is an issue.

 

[davek]

Well yes. I think you have to factor is Hibbert and Osman were given first team opportunities by him too. Alongside Rooney that is 6 in 11 years. It sounds awful but compared to most Premier league manager is quite good. In a similar time span Liverpool's great academy has produced 1 or 2 players. I think this says more about the premier league than Moyes though.

The telling thing for me though is that it kind of stops post Rodwell. It leads into my point that over the course of his tenure Moyes grew more cautious. Whether this was inherent to him or as a result of the actions of Kenwright is up for debate. In the past I placed all of the blame on Kenwright which was a mistake on my part, I sense both were factors.

For Moyes what is clear now though is he seems unable to recapture the early form he had as a manager.

Moyes always had one eye on Everton and one eye on United. If you view his actions through that prism you wont go far wrong understanding them. He was reluctant to do too much of anything that had risk to it. He knew that to impress his suitors and make SAFs task of installing him easier he had to avoid embarrassing defeats and a slip down the table. That governed every decision he ever made here. He was risk averse, and that meant less indulgence on younger players and less chances taken at the back and being caught in possession. It also meant more reactive football, rather than going and dictating the game or keeping going and killing games off we had the lead in.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

Just commenting on the hate fest that went on here after we got through a round that saw Chelsea, Arsenal, and Man Utd get knocked out. Couldn't agree more with you that we should criticize our manager when he gets things wrong, but there are some on here who just want him fired and won't be happy until he's gone. Of course Martinez is not perfect, but he isn't the sole reason why we're not tearing up trees. In terms of your specific concern, I agree. Our defense, particularly of set pieces, is woeful. Actually, set pieces and Martinez's irrational aversion to them more generally is an issue.

I honestly don't know anybody who just don't like him. My grandad did say before he took charge of his first game that he doesn't get the hype. When I spoke to him last week he said so far he has been proven right and doesn't think he has what it takes, however he would admit that the first season was refreshing for him. He is also willing to give him time to build his squad although he doesn't thing Martinez will change his philosophy.
General opinion of my grandad although on here he will be labelled anti-Martinez.

 

[davek]

Ask 30-40k fans who go each home game and the thousands who go every away game if they are bored with Martinez plan A if you like. I know what the majority would say - I should know im there most weeks.

The point you make about the first season is exactly everything im trying to get across to you. It was great to watch and it brought results - its a huge shame that we didn't get champions league football because we deserved it I thought. That season is exactly what the anti Martinez fans want, there was mistakes in that season, see palace at home for example but he was quickly forgiven by the majority because we could see the bigger picture was promising, right now and for the last 18 months it has been absolute dog turd in the main, hence the reason people are tired.
I do think we should give him until the end of the season although I admit I didn't have much patience with him for a period of last season we both know that. I can see why people are tired though, im not sure anymore if you just have a lot of patience or if your simply blind faith.
Stop having a go at people because they disagree with your opinion as strongly as you agree with the pro Martinez opinion. If you are that confident he will succeed then you should just sit back and watch him do so, if the anti Martinez are so sure then they should stand up and say so, difference being if the anti Martinez are correct then we are in a lot of trouble in losing our best young players.

You speak for no one other than yourself mate. As for you'll 'give him to the end of the season' - there's nothing happening at the end of the season. We have Martinez until he feels like he's done here. What gives you the impression it's going to be any other way?

 

[davek]

Being honest, do you look at the style of football we played in the first half against Norwich and think that that's the "proper" way to play football? It's passing football, but it's dull, unimaginative and doesn't get us anywhere. We aren't playing attractive football at all, it's walking pace most of the time, like a training session. Why hasn't he got these players playing the style that he wants, after being here two years? He surely can't be impressed with what we've served up the last 4 games

What stye of football would you like mate?

 

[ilikecheese]

See, this is the problem to me. There shouldn't be people pro- or anti-Martinez; it should just be basing opinion on what they are presented with, rather than going totally davek and pre-determining your opinion no matter what.

That is what causes most of the angst on here. There's a middle ground - you can say when the manager does things well, and you can also say when he apparently screws up, and come to a balanced overall judgement on performance rather than the character himself.

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately we have folks that have pro/anti agendas.

It's frustrating how toxic this thread is.

 

[davek]

We played some very nice football at times in Moyes last season mate

Against Southampton at home in particular we played some lovely stuff

The last time we won something was Joe Royle unleashing The Dogs of War, so to say style is the most important thing is wrong IMO

We were hardly Tikki Takking in the 80's either. Sure, we played some nice stuff, but our success was based around having giant striker Andy Gray maiming Germans, Peter Reid harrying and taking names in the mid field and perhaps the best Goalkeeper of the modern era at his most incredible keeping us in games that we would have normally drawn or lost.

This myth that we have to play a certain way clouds the issue

The style is less important than the answers to these two questions;

1 - Does Roberto Martinez have the versatility of a Catterick or Kendall to balance his "stylistic vision" and the pragmatism required in order for Everton to either win a cup or make the Champions League?

and

2 - Is Roberto Martinez capable of addressing the flaws he has (Because he definitely has some) in order to achieve his potential as a manager? (Which appears to be very high indeed based on the positives he regularly shows)

Mikey, it's obvious you dont understand what 'dogs of war' was, either that or you didn't watch that team. They had a very effective style that was not what their critics have portrayed it as.

As for questioning the 80s team's credentials: well I give up really. I think I'll just stop right there and let you dwell on it.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

As for questioning the 80s team's credentials: well I give up really. I think I'll just stop right there and let you dwell on it.

Sorry, when did I question their credentials?

I just said their success was down to more than just playing nice football, which it was

I notice you didn't address the Moyes point, because of course you didn't

I thought you were better than the whole "I'm above debating you" tactic, but hey ho guess I was wrong

 

[Deleted member 24970]

You speak for no one other than yourself mate. As for you'll 'give him to the end of the season' - there's nothing happening at the end of the season. We have Martinez until he feels like he's done here. What gives you the impression it's going to be any other way?

With all due respect you speak for nobody other than yourself too, yet you act like you represent every decent knowledgeable evertonian out there, you speak for the majority of match going fans even though the majority are visually induced into a coma at GP.

In answer to what gives me this impression is, constant favourites in the team, no balance to the team, boring football for the last 18 months in the main, fans getting tired of all the above, no training on set pieces, the worrying trend of injuries that ravage our squad at times.

I do understand that he is trying to bring a passing style to the team with a blend of youth and wisdom combined to perfection, right now though he isn't anywhere near that. Not only Bobby but it seems a lot of teams are obsessed with this Barca way of football, it is possible if you have messi, suarez, neymar, xavi, iniesta, puyol, pique, mascherano, alves, busquets, rakitic, valdes, ter stegen etc etc.......

You said last season that I should give him another season to see how he gets on, so here I am, trying to understand your way of thinking, hence why I said I would sit on the fence but im too large to do so, therefore im leaning towards the anti-Martinez side in your eyes.

 

[Ihaters]

If you think Royle's team were dogs then you need to think again. If that Bosch over there at Anfield gets them playing with half the intensity and purpose Royle's Everton played with he might be a success.

Moyes's greatest triumph was dumbing down Everton expectations to believe that football played from one end of the pitch to the other via a hoof to Cahill or Fellaini and picking up second balls was exciting. No wonder there's no patience for footy on the deck. A generation weaned on getting rid asap...with the blind hope it lands to a blue shirt. Every club he's had since Everton have seen through him within 12 months of tipping up with his museum 'football'.

haha I'd say probably improving us from relegation battles to euro battles every season, or a cup final were probably bigger than this myth of him lowering expectations tbh.

You know how last season was acceptable to you?
yet 8th etc was not under Moyes?
Which manager has actually lowered expectations?

 

[Aar_the_Toffees]

If we WIN but play the slow tempo, no plan B football, we are just anti Martinez plotters.
If we LOSE and have our slow tempo, no plan b football exposed, we are anti Martinez.

If we win by Martinez playing attacking, mixed tempo, balanced team football, we sing his praises until the cows come home. In the eyes of the pro Martinez we are put back in our place.

Point being is that when Martinez is forced to change things we generally do well, everyone who wished for change gets proven right, but of course to the likes of Da-vek, its just Martinez being the world class manager he is.......

Until the next game when he drops a winger to the bench and plays Naismith wide, then we are all hypocrites, anti Martinez plotters again.

Eat, Sleep, plot, repeat..............

No mate. We just think that since he is the manager of Everton, you should support him. Is that too much to ask for?

 

[MikeH72]

What stye of football would you like mate?

What about the style we were playing in the 13/14 season mate? Remember, all of 18 months ago?