Roberto Martinez discussion

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My expectations in terms of league finish remain the same as those under Moyes, somewhere between 5-8. However, I expect us to do it whilst being easier on the eye.

I have more hope of winning a cup though.
 

SpurtingLesbian said:
Does this take into account being left behind in the realms of mega spending that all the teams above us (Sky4) and some around us (RS, Spurs) can afford to do?
Staying at these levels is getting harder to do each year as the gap widens. Yes, we have a bigger income (Tv money.. etc) but our rivals have an even bigger one. It's simply more and more difficult to trad water league position wise than it once was.

this isn't an excuse for anything, it's a fact.
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It was also the same fact when Moyes was here, so yes.. yes it does take that into account. That gap is not widening, its been the same for a long time.
You can only play 11 players and when the top 4 can afford many of the best ones, the money involved becomes irrelevant, Moyes had to battle against some of Europes best players in this league, this was when English teams were quality on a European scale..

On the flip side, not having to sell a player to buy one for the same price.. that is not irrelevant. That is a massive bonus, so I still expect a new manager to do as well as the predecessor to be considered successful, especially when the other manager was perceived as a failure.
 
Ihaters said:
Id rather a quality win ;)

To be fair, last seasons slow, lethargic, passing game, was some of the most boring football I've ever seen from Everton.
I wouldn't take the boring part of either manager, but you combine results and flair, then we are talking and hopefully that's where we are heading.
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Hopefully! I think and believe we are heading that way, but let´s see!
 

Ihaters said:
It was also the same fact when Moyes was here, so yes.. yes it does take that into account. That gap is not widening, its been the same for a long time.
You can only play 11 players and when the top 4 can afford many of the best ones, the money involved becomes irrelevant, Moyes had to battle against some of Europes best players in this league, this was when English teams were quality on a European scale..

On the flip side, not having to sell a player to buy one for the same price.. that is not irrelevant. That is a massive bonus, so I still expect a new manager to do as well as the predecessor to be considered successful, especially when the other manager was perceived as a failure.
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Being able to keep our best players is a big bonus for him, but we would have to also take into account Martinez task of changing the habits of 10/11 years of having the same boss at the club in just a couple of seasons whilst trying to update the squad correctly and still getting results.

Theres so many factors at play, and personally I think just letting him get on with it for the likely 5 seasons he will get at a minimum is the best approach, and barring complete disaster supporting him fully whilst he is doing it.
 
bicycleheader said:
Being able to keep our best players is a big bonus for him, but we would have to also take into account Martinez task of changing the habits of 10/11 years of having the same boss at the club in just a couple of seasons whilst trying to update the squad correctly and still getting results.

Theres so many factors at play, and personally I think just letting him get on with it for the likely 5 seasons he will get at a minimum is the best approach, and barring complete disaster supporting him fully whilst he is doing it.
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I've never even suggested otherwise. He's got my backing and at the game, I support him fully.
Doesn't mean I have to accept people claiming 8th for Martinez is as good as 6th for Moyes, its just not.
 
bicycleheader said:
Being able to keep our best players is a big bonus for him, but we would have to also take into account Martinez task of changing the habits of 10/11 years of having the same boss at the club in just a couple of seasons whilst trying to update the squad correctly and still getting results.

Theres so many factors at play, and personally I think just letting him get on with it for the likely 5 seasons he will get at a minimum is the best approach, and barring complete disaster supporting him fully whilst he is doing it.
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Martinez has done well keeping players and it is possible it has been made easier because of the TV money etc but we have to also go back to Moyes comments when he left us that he wouldn't stand in the way of a players progress if a big club came in for him (don't quote me but it was along those lines).
 
Ihaters said:
I've never even suggested otherwise. He's got my backing and at the game, I support him fully.
Doesn't mean I have to accept people claiming 8th for Martinez is as good as 6th for Moyes, its just not.
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8th/6th there's nothing in it. It's nowhere.

If Martinez gets top 8, it's respectable. But there's no CL for it and there's no CL for 6th either. Who really cares? Moyes had a very respectable league record, but he had a couple of woeful seasons in his sequence also.

I'll judge Martinez's time here on how well we do in the cups rather than the PL...although, of course, he's proven he can top his predecessor in that respect. Worth noting also that Moyes averaged 57 points per season. Pretty good, but I'd be disappointed if Martinez left Everton with a sub 60 point per season average.
 

davek said:
8th/6th there's nothing in it. It's nowhere.

If Martinez gets top 8, it's respectable. But there's no CL for it and there's no CL for 6th either. Who really cares? Moyes had a very respectable league record, but he had a couple of woeful seasons in his sequence also.

I'll judge Martinez's time here on how well we do in the cups rather than the PL...although, of course, he's proven he can top his predecessor in that respect. Worth noting also that Moyes averaged 57 points per season. Pretty good, but I'd be disappointed if Martinez left Everton with a sub 60 point per season average.
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Just highlighting our lowering expectation where people are starting to claim finishing 8th is the equivalent of Moyes finishing 6th because its harder for Martinez..

I'll judge him on his overall contribution and whether he leaves us stronger or weaker than he joined us, for me improvement = success.

I know it doesn't for you and only a trophy = success.. We have had that argument before Martinez arrived, but as long as we keep getting closer to that version of success I'm happy with his contribution.. Last season was a big step backwards, but this season we seem to have had a better pre season, and seem a lot more focused and ready.

Either last year was a blip, or the first year, its looking very much like it was last year, which is great news, but its still too early to say.

I would defo take him finishing as well as Moyes did, simply because Moyes did a very good job, and that would mean so did he.

4th and a cup final is the target. Anything beyond that and he's overtaken his predecessor.
 
Ihaters said:
Just highlighting our lowering expectation where people are starting to claim finishing 8th is the equivalent of Moyes finishing 6th because its harder for Martinez..

I'll judge him on his overall contribution and whether he leaves us stronger or weaker than he joined us, for me improvement = success.

I know it doesn't for you and only a trophy = success.. We have had that argument before Martinez arrived, but as long as we keep getting closer to that version of success I'm happy with his contribution.. Last season was a big step backwards, but this season we seem to have had a better pre season, and seem a lot more focused and ready.

Either last year was a blip, or the first year, its looking very much like it was last year, which is great news, but its still too early to say.

I would defo take him finishing as well as Moyes did, simply because Moyes did a very good job, and that would mean so did he.

4th and a cup final is the target. Anything beyond that and he's overtaken his predecessor.
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On that score, I think Moyes left Martinez a mixed bag. A disciplined squad used to competing at the top end of the table, yes. And certainly a stronger one than he found. But also a squad that needed to be overhauled, and one that were talented but not that confident about their own individual ability with the ball at their feet.

I think if Martinez left tomorrow he'd bequeath a better situation to his successor than even Moyes left to him. So by your own criteria, imo, you could declare Martinez a success right now.

As you say, for me success will only be silverware. It's just an incontrovertible measurement of achievement. That's not to say I'd view his departure without a trophy as failure, just as we cant say that of Moyes.
 
davek said:
8th/6th there's nothing in it. It's nowhere.

If Martinez gets top 8, it's respectable. But there's no CL for it and there's no CL for 6th either. Who really cares? Moyes had a very respectable league record, but he had a couple of woeful seasons in his sequence also.

I'll judge Martinez's time here on how well we do in the cups rather than the PL...although, of course, he's proven he can top his predecessor in that respect. Worth noting also that Moyes averaged 57 points per season. Pretty good, but I'd be disappointed if Martinez left Everton with a sub 60 point per season average.
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Need to be regulars in the Europa League for me Dave. Cup runs mean nothing to me.
 

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