Roberto Martinez discussion

[kithnou]

At the very least, preferably CL though, preferably title winners actually.

I'd like a cup win too, though. Best current chance of getting the next trophy.

True. We need a trophy. Bonus is it gets us into Europa League.
I think the club needs to be a regular EL team to gain that European experience before even thinking about CL. If I remember correctly, Martinez made a comment of such last season.
My point was 7th or 8th and a "good cup run" making the quarters or semis is like dancing with your grandmother to me.

 

[Ihaters]

On that score, I think Moyes left Martinez a mixed bag. A disciplined squad used to competing at the top end of the table, yes. And certainly a stronger one than he found. But also a squad that needed to be overhauled, and one that were talented but not that confident about their own individual ability with the ball at their feet.

I think if Martinez left tomorrow he'd bequeath a better situation to his successor than even Moyes left to him. So by your own criteria, imo, you could declare Martinez a success right now.

As you say, for me success will only be silverware. It's just an incontrovertible measurement of achievement. That's not to say I'd view his departure without a trophy as failure, just as we cant say that of Moyes.

The only genuinely measurable criteria is league position and trophies, so far he hasn't surpassed Moyes on either, but the signs of promise are there.

If he left now, he will of improved our attack, but destroyed our defense, at great expense, so far not a success by my criteria. We are also 9th in the league, again, not a success by my criteria.
But if we start winning games, and go on a run, at the end of the season, if we finish higher than 6th, it will be a successful mission to improve us from what he inherited. If he leaves with a squad that can do that, then he has been a success.. If he wins something.. he will be a legend

 

[davek]

True. We need a trophy. Bonus is it gets us into Europa League.
I think the club needs to be a regular EL team to gain that European experience before even thinking about CL. If I remember correctly, Martinez made a comment of such last season.
My point was 7th or 8th and a "good cup run" making the quarters or semis is like dancing with your grandmother to me.

I dont know about that. If we ever get to a CL spot it's likely to be 4th place spot and the first and most important task is to get through a qualifying round and into the money-making stages. We can get our experience there. And as for that qualifying round: we showed last year against Wolfsburg and Lille that we can beat a good European team over two games.

In short, is it really necessary that we become embroiled each year in the EL to get where we want to go in Europe?

 

[kithnou]

I dont know about that. If we ever get to a CL spot it's likely to be 4th place spot and the first and most important task is to get through a qualifying round and into the money-making stages. We can get our experience there. And as for that qualifying round: we showed last year against Wolfsburg and Lille that we can beat a good European team over two games.

In short, is it really necessary that we become embroiled each year in the EL to get where we want to go in Europe?

I don't think I am explaining myself well this morning here.
I mean that expecting to go from a 7-12th mid table team we are now to top 4 overnight isn't reasonable. And we won't have the squad in depth for a CL team that way. Making the EL for a couple of seasons and building the squad in depth of quality is probably more achievable.

Having said that, I'd take 4th right now.

 

[Dexter]

Needs to get some consistency out of the squad, we can be excellent but we've got to be able to go on a good winning run

 

[kithnou]

Needs to get some consistency out of the squad, we can be excellent but we've got to be able to go on a good winning run

Agree. Would be great to string 3 or 4 wins on the trot. But realistically, hard to do that without good defending. Keeping a clean sheet is a near impossibility at the moment.

Of course, scoring 4-6 goals every week will do...

 

[USABlue]

I don't think I am explaining myself well this morning here.
I mean that expecting to go from a 7-12th mid table team we are now to top 4 overnight isn't reasonable. And we won't have the squad in depth for a CL team that way. Making the EL for a couple of seasons and building the squad in depth of quality is probably more achievable.

Having said that, I'd take 4th right now.

exactly. Last season everyone was talking about how EL was killing our league form and we'd be best off concentrating on the league so we could make Europe again? it didn't really make sense

 

[kithnou]

exactly. Last season everyone was talking about how EL was killing our league form and we'd be best off concentrating on the league so we could make Europe again? it didn't really make sense

We didn't have the quality in depth in our squa. We still don't to be realistic. Plus we didn't have the experience either. Would have great to have been there again this season.

 

[USABlue]

We didn't have the quality in depth in our squa. We still don't to be realistic. Plus we didn't have the experience either. Would have great to have been there again this season.

That's what I'm trying to say. The only way we build up to being constant in European football is by playing in Europe. It does no good to finish 5th then 11th then 6th then around 10th again

 

[kithnou]

That's what I'm trying to say. The only way we build up to being constant in European football is by playing in Europe. It does no good to finish 5th then 11th then 6th then around 10th again

Plus we will find it difficult keeping our best young talent in our squad this way

 

[davek]

The only genuinely measurable criteria is league position and trophies, so far he hasn't surpassed Moyes on either, but the signs of promise are there.

If he left now, he will of improved our attack, but destroyed our defense, at great expense, so far not a success by my criteria. We are also 9th in the league, again, not a success by my criteria.
But if we start winning games, and go on a run, at the end of the season, if we finish higher than 6th, it will be a successful mission to improve us from what he inherited. If he leaves with a squad that can do that, then he has been a success.. If he wins something.. he will be a legend

I don't see how Martinez has destroyed the defence though. He's transformed it into a unit that's way more flexible and they make perfect sense as a part of a team that plays in a different way to the way Moyes set up. Basically he's given us a modern football playing defence and one that has a decent blend of experience and youth that can develop. His big fall down is the GK situation.

Overall it's a much more talented squad with strength beyond the the 14 or so player core Moyes relied on. Anyone coming in would be delighted that they had inherited such a group and wouldn't have to add too much.

 

[catcherintherye]

I don't think I go along with the idea the league is harder now than under Moyes. We've always occupied a place about half way up the league in terms of turnover and wages spent. While City have got a lot stronger there is little doubt there has been a serious decline in United, Arsenal and to some extent Chelsea in that period. In Moyes's time those 3 alongside Liverpool were regular Champions league quarter finalists if not further.

How to judge Martinez is an interesting question. I don't think he should be viewed positive for finishing 8th. Ultimately stability has already been provided to us by Moyes. What we should hope Martinez can do (and a weakness of Moyes) is developing a distinctive style and starting to create at atmosphere of risk taking and winning. A trophy should be how he is judged.

How we measure if we leave a stronger squad or weaker squad is also fright with difficulty. Martinez inherited a very good first team, well organised and drilled who were competent at winning games and finishing in the top 6/7. It was also a side though that regular fell at the final hurdle in big matches. In essence the conundrum of the Moyes era, the glass half empty/half full dilemma.

That team would need to be broken up though. Moyes's biggest weakness towards the end, was his reluctance to try and rebuild a new team and too much loyalty showed to some of his more experienced players. Martinez is trying to rebuild. I think he's doing it slower than most of us would like (re players such as Howard and for some Jagielka). We have moved on players like Anichebe, Distin, Alcatraz, Heitinga and Jelavic though. Expect Peinaar, Osman & Howard to follow soon.

The difficult position I now see us in is I think we are part way through developing a stronger squad. We have blooded far more young players. Lads like Barkley & Stones are now world class talents and have come on leaps and bounds. Alongside guys brought in like Lukaku & Deulofeu as well as decent squad players in the making in Galloway, Browning & Garbutt. It is the type of young squad a manager should relish.

The real challenge we have is it is not automatic these players will become top pro's at Everton. We are in a delicate moment. However strong the squad looks in many ways it lacks the consistency of the late Moyes teams and arguably the starting 11 is a little weaker. As with young players you get hot and cold days. A replacement for Martinez may mess up the younger players and we would be in a difficult situation. This is why it's quite central for me Martinez is given time to bring his squad through.

Nothing is automatic. Certainly not supporting Everton. I remember in 1985 we won the league with a whole host of players under 25. All of our back 5, Bracewell, Sheedy, Sharp etc. Within 9 years we were surviving relegation on the last day of the season.

In 1970 we won the league with a young squad, loads of lads under 24. Likewise we would fall away into Liverpool's shadow as they went on to win everything. What both of these things have in common, is we had a manager who built the teams left and those who followed were;t good enough.

A more contemporary example might be around the late 90's. Like the Moyes team, Royle's side went from dogs of war, to a side that played some decent football. However it began to age and needed replacing. We never recovered from sacking Royle. Even though we won the youth Cup we never mad the most of that situation. It was completely squandered.

There was a post a couple of pages back that said we would be sensible to give Martinez 5 years. I think most managers, as long as they keep us away from relegation problems deserve time. Martinez is clearly working to a longer term plan of developing young players. I think we have to try and hold our nerve against inclinations and anger at poor defending and the odd poor result. We'll have to accept playing with young players will lead to inconsistency but they may develop into something special. They are more likely too with stability.

For all of Kenwrights faults I think he grasps the need for that. Constantly changing managers in the 90's and acting as if we had a divine right to win the title didn't get us very far, it just plunged the club into a downward spiral. All the time Martinez keeps giving young players a chance he will have my support. You can see he is developing them and touch wood we will see the benefits over a longer period.

 

[Prevenger17]

I don't think I go along with the idea the league is harder now than under Moyes. We've always occupied a place about half way up the league in terms of turnover and wages spent. While City have got a lot stronger there is little doubt there has been a serious decline in United, Arsenal and to some extent Chelsea in that period. In Moyes's time those 3 alongside Liverpool were regular Champions league quarter finalists if not further.

How to judge Martinez is an interesting question. I don't think he should be viewed positive for finishing 8th. Ultimately stability has already been provided to us by Moyes. What we should hope Martinez can do (and a weakness of Moyes) is developing a distinctive style and starting to create at atmosphere of risk taking and winning. A trophy should be how he is judged.

How we measure if we leave a stronger squad or weaker squad is also fright with difficulty. Martinez inherited a very good first team, well organised and drilled who were competent at winning games and finishing in the top 6/7. It was also a side though that regular fell at the final hurdle in big matches. In essence the conundrum of the Moyes era, the glass half empty/half full dilemma.

That team would need to be broken up though. Moyes's biggest weakness towards the end, was his reluctance to try and rebuild a new team and too much loyalty showed to some of his more experienced players. Martinez is trying to rebuild. I think he's doing it slower than most of us would like (re players such as Howard and for some Jagielka). We have moved on players like Anichebe, Distin, Alcatraz, Heitinga and Jelavic though. Expect Peinaar, Osman & Howard to follow soon.

The difficult position I now see us in is I think we are part way through developing a stronger squad. We have blooded far more young players. Lads like Barkley & Stones are now world class talents and have come on leaps and bounds. Alongside guys brought in like Lukaku & Deulofeu as well as decent squad players in the making in Galloway, Browning & Garbutt. It is the type of young squad a manager should relish.

The real challenge we have is it is not automatic these players will become top pro's at Everton. We are in a delicate moment. However strong the squad looks in many ways it lacks the consistency of the late Moyes teams and arguably the starting 11 is a little weaker. As with young players you get hot and cold days. A replacement for Martinez may mess up the younger players and we would be in a difficult situation. This is why it's quite central for me Martinez is given time to bring his squad through.

Nothing is automatic. Certainly not supporting Everton. I remember in 1985 we won the league with a whole host of players under 25. All of our back 5, Bracewell, Sheedy, Sharp etc. Within 9 years we were surviving relegation on the last day of the season.

In 1970 we won the league with a young squad, loads of lads under 24. Likewise we would fall away into Liverpool's shadow as they went on to win everything. What both of these things have in common, is we had a manager who built the teams left and those who followed were;t good enough.

A more contemporary example might be around the late 90's. Like the Moyes team, Royle's side went from dogs of war, to a side that played some decent football. However it began to age and needed replacing. We never recovered from sacking Royle. Even though we won the youth Cup we never mad the most of that situation. It was completely squandered.

There was a post a couple of pages back that said we would be sensible to give Martinez 5 years. I think most managers, as long as they keep us away from relegation problems deserve time. Martinez is clearly working to a longer term plan of developing young players. I think we have to try and hold our nerve against inclinations and anger at poor defending and the odd poor result. We'll have to accept playing with young players will lead to inconsistency but they may develop into something special. They are more likely too with stability.

For all of Kenwrights faults I think he grasps the need for that. Constantly changing managers in the 90's and acting as if we had a divine right to win the title didn't get us very far, it just plunged the club into a downward spiral. All the time Martinez keeps giving young players a chance he will have my support. You can see he is developing them and touch wood we will see the benefits over a longer period.

Woah.

 

[catcherintherye]

I don't see how Martinez has destroyed the defence though. He's transformed it into a unit that's way more flexible and they make perfect sense as a part of a team that plays in a different way to the way Moyes set up. Basically he's given us a modern football playing defence and one that has a decent blend of experience and youth that can develop. His big fall down is the GK situation.

Overall it's a much more talented squad with strength beyond the the 14 or so player core Moyes relied on. Anyone coming in would be delighted that they had inherited such a group and wouldn't have to add too much.

The reality is the defence is currently weaker. But he had a defence that Distin was past it, Howard is now past it, while Baines and Coleman have been injured. He has been putting a very young defence out alongside an experienced keeper who is a bit of a liability (though who actually had a good game on Saturday). Moyes's defence was strong but it was always going to need replacing.

I think Martinez can pick a defender out very well. He saw something in Stones Moyes didn't. Likewise Mori looks a good buy, and Galloway/Browning look brilliant finds from obscurity. Whether that eye for a defender can lead to watertight defences that are well organised I am not sure.

We were linked with a German defender in the Echo yesterday. 6 ft 6 and an absolute destroyer. I really hope we can make this happen. It's not going to be popular but I think if Stones moved on for 40 million and we could a really dominant tall centre back we'd look a lot more solid for it.

I have little doubt Stones will go on to be a top centre half. I think for us in the here and now it would;t be the end of the world if he went.

 

[Prevenger17]

It's not going to be popular but I think if Stones moved on for 40 million and we could a really dominant tall centre back we'd look a lot more solid for it.

I have little doubt Stones will go on to be a top centre half. I think for us in the here and now it would;t be the end of the world if he went

Catcher making some MASSIVE calls here.