Roberto Martinez discussion

[BernieWright13]

Martinez is out of his depth.
The longer he stays the more chance he will ruin us like he did wigan.

All but certain of this. 1% of me believing he might do it tomorrow and we then go on a run...

 

[The Equaliser]

Much more civilised discussion in here these last few days.

 

[Saint Domingo]

The first year of Martinez's reign had consistent performances at a level we never really saw under Moyes.

Having said that I think Moyes's last season was as good as we played under Moyes so Martinez inherited a very good team and just made it a little better (certainly the real improvement happened when we bought jelavic not when we got martinez). But it's hard to write off the chances off Martinez getting us playing when I saw him do it with my own eyes 2 years ago.

I thought a similar thing to be honest. The success of the first season was based on a defensive midfield pairing, overlapping full backs and one or two wide playmakers tucked infield. Osman was almost ever present and Pienaar played a lot too. Last season it was obvious we needed to replace them for the system to work, our creativity was minimal. Martinez even highlighted this himself, a playmaker and goalkeeper plus backup striker were essential he said. None came in. Deulofeu for all his assists is not a link player, he goes ahead of the full back and doesn't do the defensive side the rare moment Coleman does go ahead of him. Lennon is a speed merchant, Cleverley can make a passable attempt but is wasted out there.

As such that solid defensive system we saw in the first season with players covering each other and having lots of bodies in the middle of the pitch is now gone. We have not replaced these natural playmakers so are left with gung ho players outwide with no discipline, a midfield that can't create desperately trying to plug hundreds of gaps, and a centreback who thinks he's Baresi taking on the deep lying creative mantle for the team. Throw in the worst keeper in the league and it's no surprise we are so poor defensively.

 

[deipnosophist]

@Saint Domingo I enjoy your posts mate - you seem to have a very good understanding of the game.

 

[Saint Domingo]

@Saint Domingo I enjoy your posts mate - you seem to have a very good understanding of the game.

Just watched Everton far too much. It's annoying as I genuinely thought Martinez had brought something new to the prem when he first came. I thought would be the first step and we'd see an evolution into a team capable of playing multiple formations shifting to a back three with ease when necessary. I didn't think though that we'd actually lose our way completely from that good start. Apart from 'get it to Deulofeu' I'm not sure what exactly we're trying to do now.

 

[Darth Vader]

All but certain of this. 1% of me believing he might do it tomorrow and we then go on a run...

The illusive run that never seems to materialise

 

[deipnosophist]

Just watched Everton far too much. It's annoying as I genuinely thought Martinez had brought something new to the prem when he first came. I thought would be the first step and we'd see an evolution into a team capable of playing multiple formations shifting to a back three with ease when necessary. I didn't think though that we'd actually lose our way completely from that good start. Apart from 'get it to Deulofeu' I'm not sure what exactly we're trying to do now.

...you echo my feelings. I am so disappointed with how things have turned out.

 

[PhilM]

Just watched Everton far too much. It's annoying as I genuinely thought Martinez had brought something new to the prem when he first came. I thought would be the first step and we'd see an evolution into a team capable of playing multiple formations shifting to a back three with ease when necessary. I didn't think though that we'd actually lose our way completely from that good start. Apart from 'get it to Deulofeu' I'm not sure what exactly we're trying to do now.

We're frustratingly easily to read at home unless an opposition comes out and plays lively: same formation; same tempo; the same approach.

As you rightly mention, there's very little aspect of being a dynamic team which we originally showed. We simply try to walk our way into the net.

Even Martinez's substitutes, which in the first season were inspired, have became often easy to read and with very limited success.

It's hugely frustrating and a major cause for concern. We know we've got the talent to succeed, but for one reason or another we do not apply it!

 

[Saint Domingo]

We're frustratingly easily to read at home unless an opposition comes out and plays lively: same formation; same tempo; the same approach.

As you rightly mention, there's very little aspect of being a dynamic team which we originally showed. We simply try to walk our way into the net.

Even Martinez's substitutes, which in the first season were inspired, have became often easy to read and with very limited success.

It's hugely frustrating and a major cause for concern. We know we've got the talent to succeed, but for one reason or another we do not apply it!

That's key as well. I lost count of how many times in the first season we'd be 0-0 at the 60 minute mark, or even one down. Martinez would just haul off Lukaku and Barkley for Osman and Naismith and we'd win it. The core of the system was solid and he was cleverly varying our attacking patterns to win the game. Now the only two players he will ever replace are usually the wide ones and often only after 70 mins or so. They virtually make no difference. What is baffling is that when he has been proactive (Gibson on at half time v WBA) we've been rewarded yet he's become more and more cautious.

 

[Allezfan]

That's key as well. I lost count of how many times in the first season we'd be 0-0 at the 60 minute mark, or even one down. Martinez would just haul off Lukaku and Barkley for Osman and Naismith and we'd win it. The core of the system was solid and he was cleverly varying our attacking patterns to win the game. Now the only two players he will ever replace are usually the wide ones and often only after 70 mins or so. They virtually make no difference. What is baffling is that when he has been proactive (Gibson on at half time v WBA) we've been rewarded yet he's become more and more cautious.

The increasing caution is what gets me. He was so brave in that first season but it's not there any more.

 

[PhilM]

@Saint Domingo I think for whatever reason he's reluctant to adapt his approach to the game and therefore make easy, like-for-like changes.

Instead of making changes to challenge the opposition, we make changes which he believes suit our approach. Put simply very little adaptability.

 

[Lowste]

All but certain of this. 1% of me believing he might do it tomorrow and we then go on a run...

You be careful with that optimism, as the next step will be being positive

Be careful

 

[Jreverton1]

Form changes. Otherwise everyone would finish the table where they are in january and they don't often.

Our form has changed, but instead of playing well and getting draws we're now playing poorly and losing

 

[maccavennie]

Re those tweaks; any sign of them yet.

There is a school of thought that a guy, say a fullback, is hemmed in with the ball at his own corner flag by 2, 3, 4. players, yet, because he has the ball he is the attacking player - he has the ball and you can only defend without it etc...This is 'The Philosophy' here, thus, what he has to do is 'play it out from the back.'

one tweak would be NOT to play it out from the back when you are defending, but to GET IT OUT.
Then, when you get the ball back, should you concede possession, you are attacking...THEN you play it out from the back...as quick as you like too.

Regarding my tweak it has more to do with having a good commanding keeper, someone who the back line trust.

We don't have that and that's a huge part of the problem at the back.

 

[DualityNSNO]

The increasing caution is what gets me. He was so brave in that first season but it's not there any more.

Was thinking that to myself earlier today, as I wrote in a post "fortune favours the brave" about Martinez' first season with us... where did all the bravery actually go? We loved him for it, nearly every Evertonian out there at the time (probably) would've said "I trust Martinez with his subs/tactical adjustments"... and in the second season that went out the window like it was nothing, except for the Europa group games (imo) and a few times during the whole season, cups and all included.

Really odd.