Roberto Martinez discussion

[Ashtonian]

Like St Paul, Martinez had a 'Road To Damascus' moment....the 6-2 defeat by Chelsea. I think he is personally still coming to terms with this, and it definitely accounts for any attempts at caution that have crept into his tactical game. That heavy Chelsea defeat made RM wake up to the fact that we weren't Wigan, and like all potentially great teams, we had to be built from the back. And in fact, we have a fair number of defenders who are individually pretty good players. All current or near current internationals. I honestly feel that Martinez could be very successful at Everton...his biggest problem is himself, are rather his basic philosophy, which he is finding very hard to change. There is nothing wrong with liking the 'beautiful game' of football, but defending can be as 'beautiful' as great attacking play, and Martinez needs to realise this. I think he will.....he is right to keep saying that Everton is a work in progress, and when we get the defensive side right, we will have some consistent success, not flash in the pan single season success. As well as Martinez chaning his philosophy, supporters also have to change the way they think, and become more patient....an even harder task than the one facing Martinez.

the only issue here mate is we are getting worse from the back every year! lol

at least last year we could blame distin and alcaraz, now we have a captain, 50 million defender and proven winner as our first choice back three and it hasn't helped.

Picking up what you said, work in progress and getting the defense right, it seems more appraent he is hoping to get lucky on that front rather than put the work in to change it, with it being years now since he had to.

 

[Steve Wigan]

the only issue here mate is we are getting worse from the back every year! lol

at least last year we could blame distin and alcaraz, now we have a captain, 50 million defender and proven winner as our first choice back three and it hasn't helped.

Picking up what you said, work in progress and getting the defense right, it seems more appraent he is hoping to get lucky on that front rather than put the work in to change it, with it being years now since he had to.

I think I said in another thread that by selling Stones for £50 million or whatever, and signing a Scott Dann/Shawcross type for a fraction of that, I could see us immediately conceding less goals without losing any of our attacking ability.. Its Martinez 'play brilliant football all the time' philosophy which is the monkey on his back. Sometimes defence is about clearing your lines, and while no one wants to return, seriously, to the days of Moyes defending a narrow defeat, or the Unsworth hoof, every defender needs to have a defensive welly in his locker, at least.

 

[Big Fat Sam]

Virtually any other manager in the division, in my opinion, with this squad would have us challenging for the title easily. We could have had a second good striker in last transfer window with the Naismith money. God only knows how Martinez is performing so badly and having his players underachieve so such a massive extent.

 

[steken1]

Like St Paul, Martinez had a 'Road To Damascus' moment....the 6-2 defeat by Chelsea. I think he is personally still coming to terms with this, and it definitely accounts for any attempts at caution that have crept into his tactical game. That heavy Chelsea defeat made RM wake up to the fact that we weren't Wigan, and like all potentially great teams, we had to be built from the back. And in fact, we have a fair number of defenders who are individually pretty good players. All current or near current internationals. I honestly feel that Martinez could be very successful at Everton...his biggest problem is himself, are rather his basic philosophy, which he is finding very hard to change. There is nothing wrong with liking the 'beautiful game' of football, but defending can be as 'beautiful' as great attacking play, and Martinez needs to realise this. I think he will.....he is right to keep saying that Everton is a work in progress, and when we get the defensive side right, we will have some consistent success, not flash in the pan single season success. As well as Martinez chaning his philosophy, supporters also have to change the way they think, and become more patient....an even harder task than the one facing Martinez.

Good post Bill. I also enjoy a nice rip roaring tackle. Sometimes from behind.

 

[MikeH72]

I think I said in another thread that by selling Stones for £50 million or whatever, and signing a Scott Dann/Shawcross type for a fraction of that, I could see us immediately conceding less goals without losing any of our attacking ability.. Its Martinez 'play brilliant football all the time' philosophy which is the monkey on his back. Sometimes defence is about clearing your lines, and while no one wants to return, seriously, to the days of Moyes defending a narrow defeat, or the Unsworth hoof, every defender needs to have a defensive welly in his locker, at least.

We won't start conceding less goals until we throw that goalkeeper on the nearest bin possible. It's as simple as that really

 

[Steve Wigan]

We won't start conceding less goals until we throw that goalkeeper on the nearest bin possible. It's as simple as that really

Funny thing with the 'Anti Howard' agenda....a lot of people say that the defence is poor because 'they don't trust Howard' but the argument could equally be that Howard is nervous because he does not trust the defence in front of him(Stones dwelling on the ball, Mori's occasional misplaced pass, Colemans poor positional play, Baines...always better(excellent in fact) going forward than as a retreating defender, always allowing the winger to cross.....)

 

[Steve Wigan]

Good post Bill. I also enjoy a nice rip roaring tackle. Sometimes from behind.

Ahh...the tasteless innuendo, in place of any real contribution to the debate, and completely lacking in humour........

 

[steken1]

Ahh...the tasteless innuendo, in place of any real contribution to the debate, and completely lacking in humour........

I was agreeing with your original post Steve.

 

[Little Ralphy]

I think I said in another thread that by selling Stones for £50 million or whatever, and signing a Scott Dann/Shawcross type for a fraction of that, I could see us immediately conceding less goals without losing any of our attacking ability.. Its Martinez 'play brilliant football all the time' philosophy which is the monkey on his back. Sometimes defence is about clearing your lines, and while no one wants to return, seriously, to the days of Moyes defending a narrow defeat, or the Unsworth hoof, every defender needs to have a defensive welly in his locker, at least.

The problem with that would be Martinez would drill in to them to play out from the back just like Stones does, only they wouldn't be capable. He did it at Wigan with Caldwell.

I agree if a different manager was in charge maybe someone more defensively minded at CB could see us stronger defensively and you could use the money elsewhere in the side, but not under this manager as ultimately like you have said, it's the way he asks them to play which is the problem.

 

[Little Ralphy]

Funny thing with the 'Anti Howard' agenda....a lot of people say that the defence is poor because 'they don't trust Howard' but the argument could equally be that Howard is nervous because he does not trust the defence in front of him(Stones dwelling on the ball, Mori's occasional misplaced pass, Colemans poor positional play, Baines...always better(excellent in fact) going forward than as a retreating defender, always allowing the winger to cross.....)

I think Howard has just become the scapegoat, because he is the keeper and it's easy to see him as the one letting the goals in. I remember we beat Sunderland 6-2 and Howard made some great saves and came off his line out of his box for clearances the lot. There is only so long you can completely isolate your keeper before his confidence is going to take a knock.

For me the main reason Martinez hasn't swapped Howard for Robles is that he knows it's not entirely Howard's fault and ultimately Robles would suffer the same fate and then people may really see where the blame lies. The problem there though is that Howard's confidence has gone and he really does need to be taken out of the firing line.

 

[Steve Wigan]

I was agreeing with your original post Steve.

Maybe the fact that you called me Bill was confusing !! Glad you agree!

 

[The Hibbert Agenda]

Roberto Martínez has responded to criticism of his defensive record at Evertonand Wigan Athletic with the frank admission he would never base a performance around keeping a clean sheet.

No team has conceded more goals at home in the Premier League this season than Everton, with Swansea City’s victory at Goodison Park on Sunday increasing that tally to 22. By contrast, only three Premier League teams have conceded fewer goals on their travels than Everton. They have lost only once away in the league, at Arsenal, and are the only side to have prevented Manchester City scoring at the Etihad Stadium this term.

Another clean sheet at City on Wednesday would take Martínez’s team into the Capital One Cup final, with Everton holding a 2-1 advantage from the semi-final first leg. But their manager, who faced similar criticism when Wigan were relegated in 2013 having conceded 73 goals, insists he would never approach a game focusing solely on stopping the opposition.

“My philosophy and my way of working is not to keep clean sheets, my philosophy is to win games,” he said. “It’s a very general assessment to say we don’t defend well. If you look at our defensive record away from home this season and our record at home, it’s completely the opposite. That doesn’t mean we play in a different manner away from home – we’ve got the same personnel, the same way of playing – so there are aspects that are affecting the manner of goals we are conceding.”

“As a manager, I want to defend but would I base the performance on wanting to keep a clean sheet? No. I base the performance on getting on the ball, having a big role, dictating and having a positive approach and scoring goals. Our team is top in the league for goals scored from open play.

“That’s down to the talent we have and the work we do, but that doesn’t mean I would neglect defending. You have to do both. I think that’s an easy way of giving a view on something, you have to go a bit deeper and my philosophy is winning games, not keeping clean sheets. Other managers prefer to be defensive, give you the ball and then there’s always an error. What I like is an action that’s about winning games and achieving things.”

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Martínez insists it would be a “big mistake” to approach the second leg with a completely defensive mindset against a City team with the most Premier League goals at home this season. Manuel Pellegrini’s side have scored 33 Premier League goals at the Etihad. Everton are second on the list with 24 at Goodison.

The Everton manager said: “It has to be a complete performance against this team. If you concentrate on defending there’ll be a moment when they break you down. We kept a clean sheet against them 11 days ago, we’re the only team to do that at the Etihad this season. We know what we have to do but I don’t think it’s enough to try and keep a clean sheet, you have to have a threat and have to dictate the game. I’ll send a team out there to win. It would be a danger to try to go out to keep a clean sheet. When you get to 80 minutes you can start to think about where you are in the tie but not earlier. It would be a big mistake.”

You know, I kind of admire how dogmatic he is. His madness is considered. I hope he turns it around but I have my doubts – his flaws seem inherent. If he fails he fails and we bring in Gary Megson. So be it. Such is life.

 

[Petit]

Thing is:

We ever could have gotten players like Lukaku and Del under a manager like Martinez. No way we´d ever seen the likes of them if Moyes was still in charge.

Why?

Because Martinez tells them they can come to Everton and play around for a couple of seasons before they move on to the big time. They don´t have to play organised, don´t have to press or defend. Just attack and have good time. We´ve become a week-end resort for talented youngsters, much like Arsenal were five years ago before Wenger decided to start cracking the whip.

 

[By god I'm blue]

I think I said in another thread that by selling Stones for £50 million or whatever, and signing a Scott Dann/Shawcross type for a fraction of that, I could see us immediately conceding less goals without losing any of our attacking ability.. Its Martinez 'play brilliant football all the time' philosophy which is the monkey on his back. Sometimes defence is about clearing your lines, and while no one wants to return, seriously, to the days of Moyes defending a narrow defeat, or the Unsworth hoof, every defender needs to have a defensive welly in his locker, at least.

I think the purchase of Mori was a step in the right direction. Maybe him and Jags need to be the centre back partnership.

 

[Ashtonian]

I think I said in another thread that by selling Stones for £50 million or whatever, and signing a Scott Dann/Shawcross type for a fraction of that, I could see us immediately conceding less goals without losing any of our attacking ability.. Its Martinez 'play brilliant football all the time' philosophy which is the monkey on his back. Sometimes defence is about clearing your lines, and while no one wants to return, seriously, to the days of Moyes defending a narrow defeat, or the Unsworth hoof, every defender needs to have a defensive welly in his locker, at least.

the problem here mate is that this philosophy that he has, has not changed since we reached wigan, and he has said himself he won't change it. He sent Wigan down on the back of a poor defense, we are currently mid table now because of a poor defense, its a pattern that probably won't change. but it isn't the players, or largely down to the players as these are largely the same that shut out most weeks under the previous manager. the question then is why have baines coleman and jags forgotton how to defend? Unless it is under different instructions from the manager and they don't essentially work.

We could sign anyone we wanted for defense but jags was recently the England captain and mori has won the south american champions league, so between them and stones price tag there should be enough quality there to not concede 3 goals in 15 minutes for example.